I've heard veteran officials say with pride that they rarely throw their beanbags.

How often do you use yours and in what situations?

[I referee in Canada so our mechanics might be different.]

Personally, I have used my bean bag recently in two situations:

1. On a punt I was on sides and I saw the umpire had thrown a flag with the ball in flight. Once I was downfield to cover the punt I tossed my bean bag to mark the point of possession in case that would be the point of application. I felt this would be more accurate than asking the deep officials (who do not routinely note the POP) or the umpire.

2. When I am the referee and there is a potential intentional grounding where I am unable to call it myself because I am busy protecting the QB and one of the side guys throws his flag, I toss my bean bag to mark the potential point of application in case it is needed.

I beanbag the following in Fed/HS:
1. all fumbles
2. end of kicks (for PSK reasons)
3. first touching by K
4. spot of catch if momentum carried into endzone
5. sideline spot if you need to officiate/break up players and have a lazy back judge

no need to bean bag interceptions in Fed.


[Edited by mnref on Aug 11th, 2004 at 11:42 AM]

You have to use your beanbag! If youo have a fumble and and a penalty, beanbagging the spot of the fumble may be the spot of enforcement. With PSK, beanbagging the spot where R gains possession also gives you the enforcement spot if there was a penalty. How about first touching by K on a free kick. Any number of things can happen after that first touching, and you're going to look pretty bad if you don't have that spot marked. Same thing on on momentum situation. Bag the spot of possession! Bagging the spot a runner goes out of bounds and following the play out as a linesman when done properly looks extremely professional. But don't over use it. You don't bag a muffed snap. Also, you don't have to throw the bag at the spot of a fumble, just drop it on the yardline it occurred at. Just remember we carry the bag for a purpose and use it where it was intended to be used. Have a great year!

Always have it out of your belt and in your hand on punts and free kicks.

THAT is a great mechanics tip. Thanks!

REPLY: Don't forget to bag backward passes from beyond the neutral zone or when there is no neutral zone. Some purists will say that there's no need to bag a fumble from behind the neutral zone. But I personally see no problem doing so.

Bob, did you mean to say to bag MUFFED backward passes from beyond the neutral zone or when there is no neutral zone or should you bag all? If all, why? Thanks!

Not to speak for Bob, but yes he meant a BkWd Pass beyond the NZ as that would be an end-of-the-run spot in case there happened to be a foul. It might be the basic spot for enforcement.

Sorry, Theisey, but I don't see the situation where if the ball wasn't muffed or fumbled that you would need to bag that spot. For example, the old Stanford game where they keep lateraling the ball on the kickoff and ran over the band, you would have had bags (maybe some hats and socks, too) all over the field. Am I missing something? Thanks!

Had the Stanford play occurred today (lets not have the band out there), there would be bags, hats, jocks, socks, all over the field per mechanic.

Simple example.. A 1/10 @50

A34 runs to the B-40 and tosses a backward pass to A88 who is at the B-42. A88 runs to the B-30 where he is tackled.
During A34's run, A89 blocks below the waist on the B-35.

Where is the spot of enforcement? B-40?, B-30? or the B-35?

I would say this entire action is part of the run and the end of the run is at the B-30. Therefore, using the all-but-one principal, the foul occurred behind the basic spot and the penalty accessed from B-35. That's why I didn't think it would need to be bagged. ???????

I'm with wwcfoa43 on this one.

Here in Canada, points of application for fouls committed while the ball is in flight on a punt or kick-off, are applied form the point of possession. Knowing that spot is our responsibility. You either make a mental note of that spot, or drop a beanbag.

Here's a sitch: a short kick-off by a team down by 2 points with under a minute to go. The kicking team first touches the ball after it travels 10 yards and bats it out of bounds, towards the other team's end zone, 10 yards further than the spot of first touching.

Result: 1D/10 for the kicking team at the spot of first touching, and not where it went out of bounds. Dropping a bean bag at that spot is excellent work - just have the next scrimmage from the bean bag.

I wonder why in the pros a bb is used (CFL and NFL). Hmm....

The end of the run (in relation to penalty enforcement) is defined in the rulebook.

2-40-9 The spot where the run ends is where the runner loses player possession or where the ball becomes dead in his possession.


10-4-4 states: The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.


Using these definitions, the related run ended for A34 at the B-40. This is now the basic spot for fouls during his run and A89 did just this. The fouls is in advance of the end of his run so we enforce from the basic spot (the B-40).

and Mike is correct for this play example. That's why the bag is used.

That clears it up Mike. One last question, what would you do as the WH if your HL reported this hold by B, but couldn't tell you if it was before or after the backward pass, or it occurred during the backward pass. I sure do appreciate the knowledge of the people on this board. Thank You!

REPLY: Sorry, I was in a meeting all afternoon. You've got to do some work between visits to the board. <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_6.gif' alt='Brows' border=0></a>

And, of course, THeisey can speak for me anytime...except to my wife! His play is the perfect example of why the spot of a backward pass beyond the NZ needs to be bagged.

Bean bag in EZ?
 

If I have a passer throwing from the EZ, and the pass seems to be intentional grounding, I drop my bean bag at the sppot of the pass. I then confer with my HL or LJ. If it is ruled IG then we have a spot to penalize from.

I instruct my crew to be aware of plays going into the EZ. If an A player loses possession before the goal line they should mark that spot in case A does not recover the ball.

They also mark the spot for the momentum rule.

These little techniques have saved me from coaches' verbal assaults.

If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves.

Re: Bean bag in EZ?
 

You should just toss the flag. Wave it off if your guys provide info to change your mind.
The penalty for IG in the EZ (NF only) is a safety, so no spot is required. Your flag is the spot if anything just to show the QB was still in the EZ.

Quote:

I instruct my crew to be aware of plays going into the EZ. If an A player loses possession before the goal line they should mark that spot in case A does not recover the ball.

Why are you doing this? Anytime a player looses possession, the spot should be marked. Don't see what you are driving at with the comment "in case A does not recover".

Quote:

They also mark the spot for the momentum rule.

and righly so, this spot is a must should momentum apply

If he tells me it occured DURING the backward pass, we now have the basic spot. It is where the runner lost possession when he threw the backwards pass.

Now, if he isn't sure, I'm going to ask him to give me his best guess, even if he needs to confer with the other officials. The calling official should know the status of the ball at the time of any foul he calls (especially if he is covering the runner). If he is covering action away from the ball, he can quickly glance to locate the ball before or while he is throwing the flag.

This is something I cover in pregame. I need to know that status of the ball at the time of the foul.

REPLY: But even if the pass occurred <u>before</u> the backward pass, the spot of the backward pass, i.e. the end of the run, becomes the basic spot and must be noted (bagged). Right??

Yep! We've come full circle. The idea is to ALWAYS bag a fumble or backward pass when it occurs from beyond the neutral zone.

Theisey has a great example for use of the beanbag. Imagine that on his play, a hold occurred in front of the runner, then you'd have the basic spot would be the end of the run and not where the hold occurred (all but one).

I'd never brag about not dropping my beanbag (Being a BJ most games, I carry two.). I'd rather drop too many than not enough. It's not like throwing your flag. 99% of the time no knows you have dropped a beanbag unless it is crucial.

Hopefully that situation would never happen, but I can't imagine bringing the ball all the way back to where the first backward pass occurred and marching it off from there.

If you asked me that question point blank, I would've said that you'd mark it off from where the foul took place. My rationing is because the offense is still in possession of the ball......not to totally go against what we know in the rule books, but would you really bring it all the way back to where the first backward pass...?

Thoughts...?

So you have to be able to see the foul AND see the status of the ball when the foul occured?

Oy, vey.

I guess it's like seeing the clock hit zeros and the shot leave the shooter's hand in basketball.

First clinic tomorrow. I hope they teach us stuff like where to stand and where to watch and stuff. Because we haven't touched on that yet.

REPLY: Absolutely...and it's not all that difficult once you get used to it. Oh...and don't forget the get the number of the player who fouled.

You know, this is a real thought provoker and I spent all my lunch time thinking it over (sad, I know.) When you stop to think about it, it makes perfect sense. I guess I was just thinking too much.

I'm glad we talked about this and thanks for all the responses. This forum really is a good source for information....

REPLY: Absolutely...and it's not all that difficult once you get used to it. Oh...and don't forget the get the number of the player who fouled. [/B][/QUOTE]

And which team he's on! ;>)