Having a discussion on my crew about umpire position on punts. My umpire is considering "moving" from behind the R line to the LJ sideline during punts. That would allow us to put both BJ & LJ deep for punts, have U & HL on the line, and me WH with the punter. Almost like our free kick set with the WH flipped over.

Anyway: he is clasiming that by not being behind the R line, he will not miss anything. He will be able to see any hold, false start, or anything else. (a lot of the little stuff is not called anyways). He says that he is mostly trying to dodge players on their way down, then get out of the balls path on the eay back.

Our lineup would allow us to have 2 officials at both the spot of the catch, and 1st blocking wave, then have 2 officials at a point where a 2nd wave of blockers would be. This woudl leave the WH deep for long / break away returns.

I am wondering what your thoughts are about this type of positioning.

35 years at U here:
It might be worth a try---- you're right that my main
concern on a punt is getting out of the way and not
get blindsided. I could still probably call a direct hit on
a center by a nose guard, etc. -- the biggest possible
problem might be on a fake punt or busted play/
misplayed long snap, etc.
Remember when the NFL tried putting the U in the
offensive backfield on punts ?? Do they still do
that ? Has anyone seen something like this tried in NCAA
at any division ?

If you are thinking about that why not just move the Umpire deep instead of making 2 people move?

Personally I'd rather have the Umpire stay at his regular spot, have the LJ kind of mingle down field to help out with deep coverage but making sure to watch if there is a fake. Now if there is a fake then you can all be in approximately the default lineup.

I'd like to hear some other peoples thoughts on this though. It is always cool to try and experiment with stuff.

Good questions!
 

I'm assuming you are running with a 5 man crew.

In our mechanics, we position the BJ back with the receiver favoring the HL's side. LJ will stay on the line until the snap and then move down field (how far down the field depends on the ability of the kicker, game situation, etc.). HL will hold the line until the kick crosses the neutral zone and then move down field. R watches action around the kicker and protects the kicker. U will be in his normal position 5 to 7 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage, protect the snapper and watch line play.

As an umpire myself, I position myself no wider than the offensive guards and if possible between two of the linebackers. At the snap I hold my position and just let the players go past me as I turn towards the line judge's vacated side. When the action as passed me I will then pivot towards the middle of the field and only if its a long kick will I drift down towards the ball.

I think with proper positioning and good awareness the umpire will not get run over on a punt play.

snake-eyes & Mike
 

We do use the normal 5 man mechanics. But, we are thinking about changing this a bit. That is my question. What do you think about this set up? Is there anything that you can think of that the U will be way out of position for? I agree with the fake, and an accurate spot. But, we do use the LJ/HL for spotting on a scrimmage play anyways, so they should be in position. I do worry about the hit on the snapper though. Anything else that you could think of that we might miss bu putting the U on the sideline???

I have thought about leaving the LJ alone, and moving the U down field for the punt.

Thoughts....

Thanks

Like I said if you're going to move someone, just move the umpire, my reasoning is that the umpire isn't use to playing the wings; why move two people out of their regular position for somthing that would only take one move?

I agree with Mike, like I said just have the LJ mingle downfield before the snap and at the snap kind of jog down with the punt, this will allow the deep coverage. The LJ can move a couple yards downfield before the snap and if it is a fake he can easily get back to get a great spot. But if its not he can jog downfield while the ball is in the air for deep coverage.

I do think without a U you might miss some interior calls like holding for instance, which is a biggy on punt plays. I don' think you'd miss much else. An experienced R might beable to handle the interior line and the punter at the same time, it could still be tough.

I agree with Snake-eyes. We leave set up as normal. Line Judge is ready to drift downfield as soon as punt is away. Umpire will align toward LJ's side to cover any thing that might develop after LJ has moved downfield. BJ has ball and LJ is responsible for action in front. You still have basic coverage where it is needed without developing weak spots by moving assignments.

One crew I worked with did it this way...
 

I remember last season I got flown to Honolulu to do a game featuring private schools. In their association (5 man crew, very good officials in their association!!!), the LJ will start to drift downfield prior to the snap on obvious punt plays.

Its not really a drift though. I believe in their mechanics the LJ will move down the field 20 yards and then hold his position until the play dictates which way he moves.

That way, the BJ will still have primary responsibility for the kick returner (for fair catches, kick catching interference, etc.) but the LJ will be down field just like the SJ or FJ in a 7 man crew. This helps to box in the play because the BJ will be favoring the HL's side of the field.

I'm not sure but I believe they will modify this for short-yardage situations where there may be a fake. Then the LJ will hold the line of scrimmage until the kick is made.

Another interesting thing we should discuss. In 5 man crews the LJ goes back with the BJ on kick tries and field goals. They had me as the U go wider than the tackle on the LJ's vacated side. Theory is the LJ will get back to cover the sideline and then the U is supposed to box in the play from the middle.

To tell you the truth its great to work 5 man when you have 5 gentlemen on the same page! Also, Aloha Stadium was great! (except they replay everything on the big screens...).

Mike, I have seen Aloha Stadium. What a great experience it must have been working in that venue. They were ahead of their time with the technology.

Yes it was a great experience for me...
 

Yes Bob it is a great venue. They put in field turf prior to last season and I must say its a great surface to run around on.

Plus the stadium authority is very open to renting the facility out to the local high schools, both private and public school leagues.

Getting back to the post about crew positions on punts and other kicks...

Does anybody out there have the BJ to the side and slighty behind the receiver? And then the LJ will be coming down the field to be in front of the receiver? And then the LJ would be responsible for the fair catch signal?

I saw Aloha Stadium from my spot in line waiting to go on the USS Arizona tour. It looks nice on TV. Only drawback being June Jones comes with the deal.

REPLY: Despite SWFLguy's opinion that he would probably be able to cover any roughing against the snapper, I still think that's the biggest reason for leaving the U where he is. Even if he could see it from the wing, it would be a hard call to sell from that distance, and more so from that angle. A few years back, we adopted the technique of putting the U under the goal post for tries leaving the LJ "home" to cover any fakes or broken plays coming his way. We figured that the U could definitely see action against the snapper and then turn his focus to the kick. Last year, the state association told us to abandon the technique. The reason: they were concerned that we would not be able to sell a roughing/no roughing call from that position, and consequently we were putting everyone in a situation where legal liability might come into play if a snapper was injured.

While I can see some of the merits of "balancing" the field better with sm_bbcoach's method, I'm not so sure that it will buy us that much. Using the technique that Mike espouses should give the LJ the ability to cover a punt properly, especially since his primary focus is on action in <u>front</u> of the receiver and the average varsity HS punter isn't able to kick the ball that deep anyway. The only benefit I can really see for putting the LJ downfield is a deep punt out of bounds on the LJ side of the field. He'd be in great position to mark the OOB spot.

I agree with Bob and Snake~eyes set up of having the U drift to the side after the punt is away. The only difference that we have is the HL releases downfield after the punt is a away, not the LJ. The reasoning is that the LJ is in a better position to call the line because he is looking towards the sticks.

REPLY: Good idea...but if you do it that way, you probably need to have the BJ in the LJ's side zone rather than on the HL's side of the field. Right?

A couple of area crews have put the U in the backfield opposite the R on punts in order to see roughing better and get out of the way after the punt is made. I don't like it, in that I want the U to have the snapper protected and be able to move up to the LOS for fake punts and passes.

We have the BJ in front of the receiver on punts. No need to go deeper. The LJ releases on the snap, and the HL releases on the punt. The U pivots, and then releases to the LJ side after the ball is past him. The R releases to the HL side after the ball is away and the kicker is protected.

On tries, we got burned last year when we had the LJ and BJ under the uprights and they ran a fake to the LJ side and we couldn't get the goal line and sideline covered. Next time we adjusted by bringing the LJ back to his spot and having the R cover the one upright, the BJ the other upright. The LJ has the roughing of the kicker/holder. Any thoughts on this?

(on tries) Someone in here suggested that they have the R stay on the LJ side of the ball to cheat to that sideline if the play goes that way. With a kicker who is left-footed or right-footed, depending on the side of the field the LJ is on, the R might not get a good view of roughing if he is on the backside of the holder. We have considered putting the U and BJ under the uprights and leaving the LJ home. Any thoughts on that? Do you think the U can still see roughing the snapper?

As for the try I think when it is a short fieldgoal or on the try after TD the U should go under the post. The major problem, like you pointed out is no LJ on the fake can be a big problem. I think then on long tries the R should cover one post and just have the BJ under a post. This method really depends on the distance of the attemp and you need to be clear on what your crew will consider long or short.

I checked the CCA 5 man book.
 

I checked the CCA 5 man book and found some interesting things in the illustrations.

(By the way, the CCA 5 man book is a good reference to use for reading the keys that the BJ, LJ and HL have to focus on and communicate with each other.)

On kick tries and short field goal attempts the LJ and the BJ are behind their respective uprights. The Umpire is shown near the goal-line. This may be a good position because the HL and the U can cover the goal-line (in a 7 man crew the SJ will be placed on the goal-line during a field goal attempt unless he is used as a double umpire) and the LJ and BJ can get back to cover their respective side-lines.

On punts the BJ is shown on the same yard-line as the kick receiver, but near the sideline on the HL's side. Then the LJ will come down his sideline on the snap. If the punt goes out of bounds on the fly on the LJ's side then the R will point to the spot, and the LJ will go past that spot, turn around and then come back until the R signals him to stop.

In a 5 man crew the LJ and the BJ will do a lot of running to be sure.

We use these signals.
 

When the R sees the kicking team coming out with the tee he will touch his fingertips of both hands over his head. The U will pick up and repeat this signal to the LJ and BJ and then they get into position behind their uprights.

If the kicking team is going for it on 4th down and/or no tee is on the field for the try, then the R and U will make the rolling fists signal above their heads alerting the LJ and BJ to take their normal scrimmage play positions.

I am new to this particular board, so forgive me for adding my two cents so soon.
In our state we keep the punt coverage close to the mechanics for a number of reasons. First the Umpire needs to cover interior line play because action on the snapper is a very important thing to watch, and I don't think he can truly see it well from any other position. Second, he needs to be in a position to see the second wave get downfield as the L and LJ have the gunners and the rest of the first wave. Third, the U and R will be in excellent position at the sidelines for OOB coverage on the return, or to cover the Goalline in case of a breakout.
On tries and FG in case of fire the U can step to the goal line and in the event the play goes to the LJ side, can box the play with the R. We feel that those plays constitute a very small percentage of kick scoring plays so we are willing to take the risk of not having the LJ on the LOS.

Would be something to try??
 

Maybe in Pre Season Games and Scrimmages,
and see what happens.
What do think Bob F.?
Harry D

REPLY: snake-eyes...we used the technique with the U under the post for about two seasons until our state association told us to "cease and desist." They felt that positioning the U under the post could compromise the protection offered to the snapper. We don't necessarily agree, but that's what we've been told. And, since going to five men, we've never experimented with the R calling one of the uprights. Because of the distance away, I would think he'd have a tough time on close ones determining whether the ball was inside or outside the upright at the moment it passed over the crossbar. So we go "traditional" with the L and B under the uprights, and scramble like heck when there's a fake or a busted play to the L's sideline.

That's no good about the U being under the post, I do agree about the R calling kicks above the uprights though, it's really a tough call.

The positioning our association has adopted for FG's and PAT's was taken from an article in NFHS quarterly I believe. In a 5-man crew the BJ will be under the goal post as will either the HL or LJ depending on the whether the kicker is right- or left-footed. The R will always be about 8 yards to the side of the holder and looking at the holders chest. Whichever wing is on that side will be under the goalpost with the BJ. U will be at his normal scrimmage position. If there is a fake or busted play, the R is in good position to get to the vacant sideline and the other wing is still "at home" to cover his normal sideline. If the fake goes to the R's sideline he will trail the play as it goes upfield and the wingman under the goal will get to the sideline and then head upfield towards the play and hopefully get to the goal line before the runner. So far it has worked pretty well. We generally try to notice which foot the kicker is using during pre-game warmups.