Here's UE’s March quiz guys, have at it.
BTW ...I’m excite as all get-out. I get to work my first game with Uncle Ernie as his Umpire this coming Saturday. YIPPIEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. A 4/6 B26. A's unsuccessful field goal attempt is partially blocked. The ball bounces at the B1, is batted by A88 after it crosses the plane of B's goal line and hits the ground in B's end zone. During the down, B56 holds A87 on B's 22.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

2. A 2/8 B47. A22 fumbles at the B41. A88 is about to recover at the B43 when B56 bats the ball backward and out of bounds at the B38.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

3. A 4/14 B26. A's field goal attempt is partially blocked. B33 muffs the kick at the B4. As A44 is about to pick up the ball, B35 kicks the ball at the B2 through B's end zone. During the down, A73 tackled B92 at the B6 to prevent B92 from recovering

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

4. A 4/8 A40. B41 gives a valid signal and is in position to catch the punt at the B22. A83 runs into B41 just after the ball slips through B41's hands and is on the ground. A83 was close to, but did not impede B41, when B41 muffed the punt. The ball rolls to the B14 where A89 recovers the ball.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
5. A 4/14 A48. 2 seconds to go in the 3rd quarter. A's legal forward pass is intercepted by B84 who is advancing at the A24 when the Side Judge inadvertently blows his whistle. A78 committed a holding foul on the A44 prior to the interception. Time expires during the down.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

6. A 4/25 B45. The score is tied with 12 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. A's legal forward pass is completed to A84 who fumbles at the B22. A65 recovers at the B16. B78 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain on the clock

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

7. Team A scores a TD on the last timed down of the 4th quarter to make the score A26-B27. Team A goes for two points on the try. A throws a legal forward pass into the corner of the end zone. A88 pushes B22 to keep him from intercepting the pass. The pass is deflected and B34 intercepts and runs for a score. During B34's run, A58 throws his helmet. After the down it’s discovered B had 12 men on the field. Or for NCAA ,B65 was offside at the snap.

I'll take a shot at one to see how rusty I am. This one seems easy, so I'm probaly missing somthing. B will decline the penalty and get the ball on the A24 where the IW occured. Since there is no accepted penalty, flip ends for 4th quarter. 1/10, Clock on the snap.

I agree with you on this except for the clock. I’m thinking it should be on the ready because of the IW but I’m not really sure. What do some of you other’s think?

what about the Invertent whistle on the interception? If that occours when the period expires by rule u play one untimed down right..if B declines As pent. would B get one untimed down?

Great Call "big will"! :D I missed that thinking we wouldn't extend if B declines the foul.But as you point out NF 3-3-3c says extend for one un-timed down for the IW. B 1/10 @ A-24, no clock

Under NCAA, Snake eyes original answer would be correct if B wants to keep the ball ("clean hands").

If for some strange reason B didn't want the result of the play, then you would replay the down, after enforcement of the penalty, and with one untimed down to be played in the third quarter.

Doh, that's right, forgot about that. Finish the quarter with an untimed down.

We have an unsuccessful field goal and the play results in a touchback (dead when it crosses the plane of B's goal line and is unsuccessful). B's foul is a PSK foul and will be enforced from the B-20 yard line. B's ball, 1/10 on the B-10 yardline. Clock on the snap.


2. A 2/8 B47. A22 fumbles at the B41. A88 is about to recover at the B43 when B56 bats the ball backward and out of bounds at the B38.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

End of run (for penalty enforcement) is the B-41. B56 has committed an illegal batting foul. A can accept the results of the play and have 1/10 at the B-38 (unlikely), or they can have the 15 yard batting foul enforced from the end of the run (B-41), 1/10 from the B-26. This is NOT enforced from where the ball went out of bounds. Clock on the snap in either case.

3. A 4/14 B26. A's field goal attempt is partially blocked. B33 muffs the kick at the B4. As A44 is about to pick up the ball, B35 kicks the ball at the B2 through B's end zone. During the down, A73 tackled B92 at the B6 to prevent B92 from recovering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
B33's muff will allow whoever ends up in possession of the ball a new series. B35 commits and illegal kicking foul that fits the criteria for PSK. The results of the play is a touchback (ball is still in "kick" status because the kick had not ended). B is going to be offered a choice.

1. Decline A's penalty and have their penalty enforced from the spot of the foul, B's ball 1/10 at the B-1.

2. Accept A's penalty for a double foul and replay 4th down.

Either case, clock on the snap (due to the touchack).


4. A 4/8 A40. B41 gives a valid signal and is in position to catch the punt at the B22. A83 runs into B41 just after the ball slips through B41's hands and is on the ground. A83 was close to, but did not impede B41, when B41 muffed the punt. The ball rolls to the B14 where A89 recovers the ball.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Nothing illegal has occured. A's ball 1/10 at the B-14. Clock on the snap.

5. A 4/14 A48. 2 seconds to go in the 3rd quarter. A's legal forward pass is intercepted by B84 who is advancing at the A24 when the Side Judge inadvertently blows his whistle. A78 committed a holding foul on the A44 prior to the interception. Time expires during the down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Side judge? We don't have such a thing in Illinois high school football. Somebody better check that man's credentials and make sure he isn't going to do the full monty during halftime :D

Seriously though.....

B will decline A's holding foul and take the results of the play. No matter what B decides, there will be one untimed down to end the 3rd quarter.

6. A 4/25 B45. The score is tied with 12 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. A's legal forward pass is completed to A84 who fumbles at the B22. A65 recovers at the B16. B78 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain on the clock
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

To enforce roughing the passer we need to know that the end of the last run is the B-16 and there has been no change of possession. A's ball 1/10 at the B-8, clock on the ready. Even if the clock expires, there WILL be a down played.

7. Team A scores a TD on the last timed down of the 4th quarter to make the score A26-B27. Team A goes for two points on the try. A throws a legal forward pass into the corner of the end zone. A88 pushes B22 to keep him from intercepting the pass. The pass is deflected and B34 intercepts and runs for a score. During B34's run, A58 throws his helmet. After the down it’s discovered B had 12 men on the field. Or for NCAA ,B65 was offside at the snap.

Try ended when B intercepted the pass. Now we must deal with the IP foul on B and the live-ball OPI foul on A.
Pair them as double fouls and replay the try. Next we deal with the personal foul on A (for throwing the helmet). I am assuming he threw it to trip his opponent. Doesn't matter that the ball was dead. He still threw his helmet. Penalize A 15 yards and replay the try from the 18 yard-line. A would be smart to try a kick this time (but who am I to coach).



Let me have it.

#3
Is this play covered under loose ball play?...double foul replay the down from the previous spot?
#6
why do we bean bag fumbles? Isnt that the spot were the run ends for pent. accessment.. run ended on B22 yd line?
#7
We had two live ball fouls on the play-whistle blows the ball dead on the interception...no foul on the helmet throw it shouldn't have even gone that far..

Originally posted by big will
#3
Is this play covered under loose ball play?...double foul replay the down from the previous spot?


Mr Neil has it correct for this year. B has options


#6
why do we bean bag fumbles? Isnt that the spot were the run ends for pent. accessment.. run ended on B22 yd line?

The rule is end of last run if there is no change of posession and a runner is a player in possession of the ball. For enforcing roughing the passer, the only time we'd go back to the spot of the fumble is if the ball rolled out of bounds or an IW was whistled.


#7
We had two live ball fouls on the play-whistle blows the ball dead on the interception...no foul on the helmet throw it shouldn't have even gone that far..

You are correct it should never get this far, but even if I sound my whistle and a player still throws his helmet to trip an opponent, I would consider this a personal foul and flag it as such.

I don't know about this one Mike. All Uncle Ernie says is that he throws his helmet during the run. This might be out of frustration or practice for his bowling league. Whatever the case I’m thinking all we have here is failure too properly where his equipment. I think I’d bring the ball back and have them just replay the down. Then I’m looking for Uncle Ernie to kick his a$$ for making me come up with a ruling for this screwy play ;)

You could also nail him with a USC.

REPLY: I know I'm late, but here's my thoughts...In some cases, I even stated the unlikely, ridiculous choices that a team might make. This, I believe, helps us understand the full implications of fouls and their penalties. Note: I think #3 is a great teaching play. Presents a really tough choice for B.


1. A 4/6 B26. A's unsuccessful field goal attempt is partially blocked. The ball bounces at the B1, is batted by A88 after it crosses the plane of B's goal line and hits the ground in B's end zone. During the down, B56 holds A87 on B's 22.
<b>RULING:</b> Touchback. B’s foul is enforceable under PSK. PSK spot is B’s 20. Result: B, 1-10 from B’s 10.

2. A 2/8 B47. A22 fumbles at the B41. A88 is about to recover at the B43 when B56 bats the ball backward and out of bounds at the B38.
<b>RULING:</b> Illegal bat by B56. Result (Play): A’s ball, 1-10 from B’s 38. Result (Penalty): A, 1-10 from B’s 26.

3. A 4/14 B26. A's field goal attempt is partially blocked. B33 muffs the kick at the B4. As A44 is about to pick up the ball, B35 kicks the ball at the B2 through B's end zone. During the down, A73 tackled B92 at the B6 to prevent B92 from recovering.
<b>RULING:</b> B’s choice: (a) refuse the penalty for A’s hold. Then penalize B (PSK) for illegally kicking the ball. Result—B, 1-10 from B’s 1. Or (b) accept the penalty for A’s hold. Result—A replays 4th down. Tough choice for B…either accept horrible field position, or give A a second chance at the FG!

4. A 4/8 A40. B41 gives a valid signal and is in position to catch the punt at the B22. A83 runs into B41 just after the ball slips through B41's hands and is on the ground. A83 was close to, but did not impede B41, when B41 muffed the punt. The ball rolls to the B14 where A89 recovers the ball.
<b>RULING:</b> A, 1-10 from B’s 14.

5. A 4/14 A48. 2 seconds to go in the 3rd quarter. A's legal forward pass is intercepted by B84 who is advancing at the A24 when the Side Judge inadvertently blows his whistle. A78 committed a holding foul on the A44 prior to the interception. Time expires during the down.
<b>RULING:</b> (Play-inadvertent whistle) B, 1-10 at A’s 24 – or – B can have A replay the down. In either case, an untimed down is required. (Penalty--unlikely) A, 4-24 from A’s 38. Again, an untimed down is required.

6. A 4/25 B45. The score is tied with 12 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter. A's legal forward pass is completed to A84 who fumbles at the B22. A65 recovers at the B16. B78 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain on the clock.
<b>RULING:</b> For Federation, if A65’s recovery is on the ground and simultaneously causes the ball to become dead, it is not considered a new related run. Therefore penalize B from B’s 22. Result: A, 1-10 from B’s 11. Clock on ready. If time expires before the subsequent snap, play an untimed down.

7. Team A scores a TD on the last timed down of the 4th quarter to make the score A26-B27. Team A goes for two points on the try. A throws a legal forward pass into the corner of the end zone. A88 pushes B22 to keep him from intercepting the pass. The pass is deflected and B34 intercepts and runs for a score. During B34's run, A58 throws his helmet. After the down it’s discovered B had 12 men on the field. Or for NCAA ,B65 was offside at the snap.
<b>RULING:</b> FEDERATION: Double foul (OPI on A; IP on B). Official should have sounded the whistle on B’s possession. Assuming he didn’t (an inadvertent non-whistle!) ignore B’s score, replay the try after penalizing A for A58’s USC. A tries from B’s 18. NCAA: Double foul - - replay the try. Need to let the play go after B’s interception. Since B’s foul was prior to the interception, negate the score. A re-tries from B’s 18 after enforcing A58’s USC.

I was reading too much into it. I've been caught. :)

Bob, do you have a casebook play to support this? I don't have mine handy. Or can you show us how you arrive at this conclusing via the rulebook?

Just curious.

Thanks!

REPLY: Mike, This play appeared originally in the 1997 Case Book (year the rule was changed) as Play #29 in the section on new rules. It subsequently appears as Play 9.4.3D in the 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003 Case Books:

<b>Play:</b> If passer A1 is roughed on a third down play from midfield, where is the penalty enforced from if A2 catches the pass at B's 40, but fumbles on the 34 and A3 recovers at B's 30? <b>Ruling:</b> The end of the last run is where A2 fumbled the ball. Following enforcement, it will be A's ball first and ten from B's 19-yard line.

Hope that helps...

It's helpful but it certainly isn't how I interpretted the "last run". Maybe it should say "related run" or something a little more clear.

(added)

It still doesn't make much sense to me.

1/10 at A-20. A7 throws a pass and A10 catches it at the A-25. B1 roughs the passer (A7). A10 fumbles at the A-28. A11 picks the ball up at the A-29 and runs to the A-35 where he is tackeled. Where is this enforced? The A28 or the A-35?





[Edited by mikesears on Mar 18th, 2004 at 02:43 PM]

REPLY: Mike...just to clarify. If A11 recovers the ball while on his feet and continues to advance, then that <u>is</u> a new run. In your play, the penalty would be enforced from A's 35. But if he recovered at A's 29 <i>on the ground</i> (i.e. diving on the loose ball) in a manner that the ball became immediately dead, and he makes no further advance, then the "last run" is that of A10 and the penalty would be enforced from A's 28 where A10's run ended (fumble).

When extending the period...
 

Hey guys,

I realize this must have been covered already, but here is a really easy way to remember when to extend a period.

Think of the acronym PATIO --

PA - <b>P</b>enalty <b>A</b>ccepted for a live ball foul.
T - <b>T</b>ouchdown
I - <b>I</b>nadvertant Whistle
O - <b>O</b>ffsetting penalty

If any of the above items occur during a down in which time expires, you extend the period. This has helped me immensely over the past couple of years!

Also, regarding the play in which the helmet is thrown. It is meant to be a live ball foul enforced as a deadball foul (USC). Sorry for the confusion.

Finally, in NFHS (and I am really out of my element here), I think that the RTP foul is enforced from the basic spot which is the end of the run. I don't know of anything that says the end of the related run. I agree with Bob about the case book ruling in '97.

Flags and bags,
UE

REPLY: One other NFHS nuance on extending the period. Unlike NCAA rules where time must actually expire during the down, in Federation PATIO must occur during the last timed down of the period, even though expiration of time may occur after the down ends. Example:

<b>PLAY:</b> With 12 seconds left in the 2nd period, A runs to B's 40 where he is tackled by the face mask with 4 seconds left in the period. A accepts the penalty. The clock starts on the ready-for-play and expires before A is able to snap the ball. <b>RULING:</b> (NCAA) The half is over. (FEDERATION): Since the foul occurred during the last timed down of the second period, the period is extended by an untimed down.