Hi Guys, i am new here but allready have a question which we here in our area so far have been unable to solve:

2nd and 8 from B's 48. A-22 advances to B's 42 where he fumbles high into the air. B-94 jumps and reaches the ball in the air and while still airborne is pushed by A-67 at B's 42 out of bounce over the sideline. Before he touches anything B-94 pitches the ball forward to B-74 who catches the ball inbounds. B-74 then advances to A's 39.

The Rules are NCAA:
Question: is this legal or is the pitch handled as an ilegal forward pass?

I would say: yes, and next play should be:
B's Ball 1+10@ B's 39 Clock on Snap

Any sugestions ?

Ares

I think it depends on if he had posession of the ball, did he actually pass it? or was it a bat. B can never pass the ball forward.

NFHS: I'm so rusty because I'm studying basketball and lacrosse rules at the moment but I'm goign to say its Illegal Forward Pass - B's Ball 1/10 at B's 47.

A similar play happened in the Peach Bowl a few years ago. That play started as a forward pass but a defender grabbed the ball while the defender was airborne, and before he came down he pitched it forward to a teammate. Not sure how they ruled but the next year it was clarified and we were told that should be handled as a "bat." A forward pass can be batted in any direction legally so it was no foul. In your play, it is not a pass, it is a loose ball from a fumble. Fumbles cannot legally be batted forward. The way your scenario reads, it was forward so it would be an illegal bat. Enforcement from end of run (B-42). Ball goes to B-27, 1st and 10.

TXMike,
We are giving the ball to A correct?? Since B never possessed the ball??

Sorry, should have been clearer. A will retain possession after enforcement of the penalty although B did have "temporary possession" when B74 got the ball.

You would give A the Ball?

On what ground?

B has possesion at the end of the Play. I could accept that it can be ruled as illegal forward pass. But still B would retain the Ball after the penalty.

Ares

I think the point TXMike is trying to say is that the player never gained possession, therefore the penalty is during a loseball play, enforce from A's fumble.

NFHS ruling
 

According to NFHS 2-32-1 ”A ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player after it has been handed or snapped to him, or after he has caught or recovered it.” In this play B94 never has actual possession. I believe his “pitching” of the ball would be considered more of a bat then a pass and as such is legal under 9-7-2...” No player shall bat a loose ball other than a pass or a fumble in flight, or a low scrimmage kick in flight which he is attempting to block in or behind the expanded neutral zone.
So what we have is a great play by B94 and a half-decent run by B74 (he probably a big fat nose guard) giving B the ball 1/10 @ A-39 clock on the snap.

My answer is under the NCAA code. As I mentioned, following a very similar play in the Peach Bowl in 2001-2002, an AR was written (AR 7-3-6-X) which defines the act by the airborne player as a "bat" even though he clearly had ball in grasp. Forward passes can be batted in any direction, fumbles cannot be batted forward.

REPLY: TxMike's answer for NCAA is correct; Jim Neil's answer for Federation is correct. The Federation allows the batting of a fumble in flight (what this appears to be) regardless of direction. In no way can this action be interpreted as a forward pass.

By the way Mike, if I remember the Peach Bowl scenario, the officiating crew did incorrectly rule it an illegal forward pass. Not sure, but I believe that the R was Mr. Bible.

to TXMIKE:

So, if I understand you correctly your answer would be:

A's Ball 1+10 @ B's 27 clock on Ready after Penalty for Ilegal Bat (15 Y)

Based on the Fact that B never had established possesion of the Ball ?
Enforcment from the Spot of Fumble (B's 42).

Okay, I can live with that. We had a lot of the discussion here if a pitch really could be considered as a bat or even as a pass, but if you start with the posession, it gives the question a different angle.

Thanks a lot for the new approach.

ares

The original scenario stated that B-94 "pitches the ball forward to B-74," asking if it was an illegal forward pass. You have established that a)the act by airborne B-94 was a bat, not a pass, and b)the loose ball was still a fumble, and c)under NCAA rules a fumble cannot be batted forward.

I am assuming that by "forward to B-74" Mr. ares meant "toward the goal line being defended by Team A."

Since the ball was still in Team A possession at the time of the bat by B-94, would not that bat be considered backward, not forward? Therefore it would have been legal under both codes and B gets to keep the ball at A's 39? Or is the "forward" direction of the bat established by the player who batted the fumble, not the team in possession?

Just curious.

Sorry,

clock should of course start on Snap.

ares

to Middleman:

If I remember my Instructor at the clinics correctly: the direction allways refers to the opoonents Endzone. So this would mean forward for Team A is in the direction of B's Endzone and forward for Team B in the direction of A's Endzone.

If this is so, then the bat would be illegal.

ares

Why would the clock start on the snap if Team A retained possession after enforcement?