4th and 10 for team A at team B's 30. Linebacker B50 anticipates the snap of the ball, but encroaches, and leaps across the neutral zone and tackles Quarterback A14 by a) wrapping him up by the chest or b) wrapping him up by the helmet and grasping the helmet opening. What's your call? Situation B actually happend to us this last season. I was the U.

[Edited by FredFan7 on Jan 21st, 2004 at 10:44 AM]

IMHO, I go with the 5 yd encroachment. That is assuming that B isn't malicious in his tackle. IF he is we are going to also have a dead ball USC and instead of 5 or 15 it will be 5 and 15 :)

I'm assuming he was not in the NZ before the snap if he 'anticipated' it. Therefore, situation a is too bad for A, B takes over at the dead ball spot. Situation b is too bad for B, 1st and 10 for A at B's 15.

Let me know if my assumption is wrong - assumption makes an *** of you and umption.

REPLY: Since the face mask offense by B50 involved contact, it could <u>never</u> be a USC foul. It would be have to be a personal foul.

To clarify:

There was no snap. A14 barked "Hut" (no head bob) and B50 sailed over the neutral zone and tackled A14.

My ruling:

a) I've got deadball, offsides by B. Assuming that the contact on the QB was non-flagrant. 5yd penalty. A 4/5 @ B25

b) Deadball, offsides by B AND a 5 yard facemask penalty, again assuming that the contact was non-flagrant. A 4/inches @ B20 or A 1/10 @ B20 depending on the spot.

Yep my bad Thanks for the correction Bob

I agree. ;) Like Bob said, it would be a personal foul, USCs are noncontact only! Please don't make that mistake.

well if I only had my rule book with me on the field we would be ok ;)

Your not in OHIO anymore Toto.......you beat me to the comment.

Your not in OHIO anymore Toto.......you beat me to the comment.

I agree with the above posts.

JMN - "Offside" can <B>NEVER</b> occur under Federation Rules!
Encroachment is the proper penalty under federation rules! <b>Offside is a live ball foul by the defense under NCAA rules only.</b> Neither the word "offside" nor "offsides" appear in any NFHS publications, (<u>exception,</u> under signal 18 on page 80 of the 2003 rules for you trivia buffs.)

While I would never support carrying a rule book on the field during a game, I think you and cmatthews should consider doing a little post season rules reading and study group activity!

And you should consult the previous posts for correct spelling....Aside from semantics, which I agree I misspoke, what is the discernable difference between Dead Ball USC and Dead Ball Personal foul penalties and enforcements??

Since you asked
 

Well Mr. Mathews since you asked;<B>

1a) UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS </b>ARE <U>ALWAYS,</u><B> NON-CONTACT FOULS!</B><b>

1b) PERSONAL FOULS </b>ALWAYS (with 1 exception*)<b> INVOLVE SOME TYPE OF CONTACT</b> with an opponent!

<i>*If you take a swing at an opponent and miss, or kick at an opponent and miss. While no contact is made it is considered a personal foul. The player is also disqualified!</i>

2a) If you recieve two personal fouls you may be allowed to continue to participate!

2b) If you recieve <b>two USC's you are by rule disqualified!</b>

I might also suggest reading Rule 9 where all of this is spelled out. While some newer officials seem to think they can decide on their own whether an act is a PF or an USC this is not the case as most of the common acts that occur are listed in Rule 9, but also remember the deciding factor is: <u>
Contact = Personal Foul
Non-contact = Unspotsmanlike </u></b>.

I hope this helps...

[Edited by KWH on Jan 21st, 2004 at 06:47 PM]

KWH,
Thanks so much for your eloquent explanation. If you had checked above you would note that I had already acknowledged the mistake after it was politely pointed out to me. My point in asking you the difference was they are both 15 yds from the succeeding spot. So the enforcement aspects aren't that critical. I am not exactly sure what makes you think I am a newer official and I don't really care, you can either jump down my throat or misspell my name not both. I am fully aware of the differences, I just misspoke because frankly I am doing my in season basketball rules study, so take a chill pill and put on a happy face :D

[Edited by cmathews on Jan 21st, 2004 at 05:59 PM]

</b>You're welcome <b>
</b>I did read all of the above posts prior to responding. And since you asked a question of me I only thought it would be polite to respond to your question.<b>
</b>
Actually they are critical! A PF can be a live ball foul or a dead ball foul and can therefore be administered as a live ball foul or a dead ball foul. A USC foul is always enfoced as a dead ball foul regardless of when it happens.
Additionally two USC's require an ejection.<b>
</b>
I never stated I thought you were a new official. I just stated a well-known fact regarding newer officials not knowing the differences between the two fouls. And I appologize for mispelling your name. <b>
I don't get excited so no chill pill is required and I always have a happy face. I hope your basketball season goes well.

"...but encroaches, and leaps across the neutral zone..."

What part of ENCROACHMENT don't you understand?

Bob

I edited my orginal post after ABoselli responded.

For the record, it was a chippy game. We penalized the five yard encroachment foul, and a 15 yard facemask penalty, since I thought the defender tackled the QB by the helmet opening. Maybe a 5 yarder was warrented...

KWH, I made a mistake if the play was only NFHS, but I didn't see that in the original play. How did you determine that it was NFHS rules? The word 'encroachment'?

And please don't lecture me (and my guess CMATTHEWS may agree) on post season rules study. I know that I need to study the rules every year and have already begun for next season. It must be nice to have it all figured out like you. But, please show me where the post asked for the NFHS interpretation. Thanks.

I couldn't agree more JMN, thanks for putting it a little more tactfully than I did LOL :D

So far, nobody has put the ball on B's 12-1/2 yd. line, which is where it would need to go. Just for argument's sake, without having seen the play, I find it difficult to rule an "incidental" facemask when the QB is tackled by the head as stated in original play b).

My opinion.

It was in the title: "5 and 15 in NFHS"

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think that a facemask penalty is an option here. The ball is dead, if it is penalized it is a dead ball personal foul correct? There really is no 5 yard option is there, aside from the original encroachment??

I read tthe subject line and clicked on the topic
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMN

Quote:

KWH, I made a mistake if the play was only NFHS, but I didn't see that in the original play. How did you determine that it was NFHS rules? The word 'encroachment'?

It was in the subject line of the entire post <b>5 and 15 in NFHS, </b>as "JMN" already pointed out!

[/b]
OK, sounds good, but you have spelled cmathews name incorrectly. It only has one "T" in it, and based on a previous post in this thread he gets rather arrogant if you spell his name wrong. I for one have never found spelling errors to be an issue or spelling for that matter to be prerequisite in this type of forum, but some people do.

[/b]
Sounds like a good sound course of action.

[/b]
I am posotive I have never made that statement, as <u>anyone who would make that statement would be a fool.</u> If I left that impression that I have it all fiured out then I apologize.
I do, however feel "confortable" with NFHS rules. After 25 years experiance and leading classroom instruction to young (3rd year) officials one tends to feel "comfortable" with the rules and not make common mistakes.

[/b]
Again it was in the subject line that you clicked on to get into the thread!


Your'e welcome.

KWH,
A couple things, if you take time to read my previous post that you refer to, it mentions jumping down my throat and misspelling my name. I don't mind one or the other, but both together tend to rile me. I don't get arrogant, I prefer indignant, or p#s#ed off. If you haven't noticed from other posts on the entire forum, citing resumes does nothing but alienate that person usually. Just some food for thought...

cmathews,
As my 5 year old niece would would say; <b>"Whaddever!"</b>