first down?

nshannon · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 11:48am

At a high school game, the opponent was trailing and on their 4th down, with less than three minutes left in the game. They went for the down as opposed to punting. The officials had the chain gang come out, and the official appeared to rock the ball forward. The ball was still a good 6 inches inside the marker, however it was ruled a first down, changing the outcome of the game. Many of us have this on tape and were quite upset.

Did we miss something? We heard that our team's last game will have these same officals and we are not looking forward to that. However, if there is something that we don't know, we will accept this call.

mikesears · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 12:28pm

Was the ball still INSIDE the line to gain? Without seeing EXACTLY what the crew did, it is hard to comment.

Words such as "appeared to rock the ball forward" indicate that a good view of the action was not obtained.

If the crew messed up, there isn't anything that can be done (unless you live in Georgia).

nshannon · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 12:44pm

Maybe I should not have said "appeared". The official was clearly rocking the ball forward. The ball was inside the chains, no part of it outside the marker. The view was perfectly clear from us as it was done along the field close to the side line and there were no players in front of us.

Thank you for your speedy response!

Bob M. · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 01:08pm

REPLY: As the others have said, it's very difficult to comment without having seen the measurement. However, there is one thing that might explain the crew's actions. In order to reach the line to gain (and be awarded a first down), the ball does not have to extend beyond the front stake. It only has to reach the inside edge of the front stake. This might account for the apparent miss, but 6 inches !?!? As for a "rocking" the ball, the only thing I can think of is if the ball ends up with its long axis not parallel to the sidelines, it must be rotated to a position where it is before the measurement is done. Don't know...Just shots in the dark...

nshannon · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 01:44pm

Thank you for your reply, Bob. Yes, a good 6 inches....Needless to say, our boys (and fans) were dumbfounded. There is nothing that we can do about it after the fact, I guess my main concern is that these same officals are working our last game, which is a big one (decides what place we end up in league).

Again, thank you.

Bob M. · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 02:10pm

REPLY: If I were an official, and had some perverse desire to "cheat" for a team, a measurement would be the absolute last place I would do it. Everyone and his brother is focusing in on the measurement. Everyone can see whether or not the line to gain has been reached. I've got to think that there's something else that entered into the equation. Did your coach object when they ruled a first down? I mean more than the normal "bad spot" routine.

MD Longhorn · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 02:20pm

If you have it on tape, perhaps you can find a way to make this viewable to us. I'm having trouble with the "rocking the ball forward", and also trying to understand how one group (you, your players, and fans) could see one thing (ball 6 inches from the stake), and another group (refs) could see another (1st down), unless there's something being left out of the description.

Regarding the ball rocking - this will only move the nose a tiny bit (nowhere near 6 inches), so I'm not sure how that part is relevant at all.

nshannon · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 02:32pm

did our coach object? You bet, as did all of us. Regarding the game tape, mine is on VHS format, so unless I can get it transfered to a CD...

the funny thing is is that I work at another high school who happened to be playing my son's team the following week, so they ended up reviewing the game tape. The students couldn't believe the officating when they reviewed the tape, so I know it wasn't just a sour parent seeing things!

I don't know where it started, but I was told that years ago my son's school had a reputation for being rough. But I am talking a very long time ago. It seems that the officials we get seem to still treat the players as if they were a part of that era. Our last game we had an official that was an alumni of the team we were playing! Need I mention that that team did not have a flag pulled against them for two full quarters?

ABoselli · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 02:43pm

Was there a captain from your team there watching the measurement? If I'm the referee, I'll usually have the team captains close enough to view the measurement without obstructing the view of most. If he was right there, how did it stand up? Did he say anything?

nshannon · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 03:15pm

If I remember correctly, the opposing team was even a little shocked by the call. I will see if there is a way to get this transfered on to my ccomputer so I can post it.

ScottV · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 05:55pm

Does the head coach or AD have any final say on the officials that work your games? Do you think the crew was cheating the whole game or just this measurement?

nshannon · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 06:18pm

I may be biased, but it seems that the whole game was slanted towards the other team. I can certainly handle our kids getting calls for holding and whatnot, when they deserve it, but I really do expect it to be fair and have the calls go both ways. Out of the nine games played so far this year, only one of them was a game where the officiating seemed even. I know that the officials can't see everything, but when it is right in front of them....well, we come to our own conclusions. We have several injured players right now suffering from neck injuries from blatant face mask pulling (none of which was called till the 4th quarter) on our last game. It is just really frustrating.

My son told me that one coach was going to send a copy of the game film to who ever it is that decides who officates our games. Hopefully that will help. I don't like to complain because I certainly could not do the job.

bluezebra · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 07:26pm

Coaches, players, parents, fans, all see the play with their hearts. The officials see the play with their eyes.

Bob

Warrenkicker · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 12, 2003, 09:41pm

Your only means of recourse is to send this tape highlighting the questionable spots to the league commissioner. The outcome of the game will not be changed but perhaps the officials involved could be repremanded IF there in fact was an error.

This is a hobby for us all and thus errors are made when some of us don't put in the time to do the job right. No one can make a living off of about $60 for a Friday night game when you were gone for at least 4 hours to work the game. For some of us we spend more than 8 hours on one game just to cash a $50 paycheck.

nshannon · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 13, 2003, 11:01am

I agree, it is a thankless job, and one I would not want to do. You can't please all the people all the time, and very few people some of the time. And yes, when our kid is out there every game could possibly be his last, so we (parents) are especially upset when calls are missed that have the potential to cause serious physical harm (face mask, late hits, etc). We are very appreciative of the time that is put into officiating high school games.
I know at this stage that that call is a moot point, and it was a non-league game, but we do not want officials who may, for what ever reason, have some kind of bias against our team.
I do know that the coach is sending tape to someone regarding our last game and the fact that one of the offials was an alumni of the opposing school.
I really appreciate all of you responding to this football mom. How awesome of you! What a great site this is.
Thank you!