This one blew me away. Frosh game Thursday nite. A has 12 in the huddle momentarily, A coaching staff recognizes, screams for kids to call TO.12th player is running to sideline as A gets TO granted, now WH tosses hanky....bang em for illegal sub and charges the TO. Lucky for me, we were down at B's 5, out of the coaches area(I had A's sideline), WH walked over and some how sold his call.

We were on a mixed crew that nite, my crew chief was BJ and he was talking on the ride home bout this being a real cheesy call, I agreed....A knew they had screwd up, called TO and still get a flag.....B's sideline was doing some yapping...I think that had some influence

That's not very fair. A probaly wouldnt have used a timeout had he flagged it.

I'd go flag or timeout, not both. Leaning toward a timeout.

"Momentarily"?? In NCAA rules it is not a foul unless momentarily means more than 3 seconds. But even if it was more than 3 seconds and the crew did not pick it up on their own until the TO was called, I'd go with the TO (and never with both).

we had a similar situation in a game a couple weeks ago...I was working as LJ, counting defense....I count 12 start counting again, count 12 reach for flag, I see the HL coming in killing the clock, the flag flies...my thought is that he also has the 12...the defensive team had called time out...so we waived off the flag and went on...in a related note to funniest things you have heard...as the defensive coach is coming out he says hey wait, there is a flag that takes precedent over the TO, the HL says you don't want it to its on you, coach says ok we want the TO then....

REPLY: Mike, the Fed's rule says that "...replaced players shall leave the field immediately," but has no definition or guideline for interpreting the word "immediately." Common interps pretty much agree with the NCAA's use of three seconds as a good guideline.

On our crew, we do the following: count 12, recount. If 12 again, reach for flag, then let loose. If a TO is called by anyone,before the flag, go wiht the TO, if not, go wiht the flag. The NF wording we key on is deception. Was it intentional? Wrong person called in /out. IF the players figure it out and get them out quickly, give them benefit of doubt. I have had coaches thank us (oppposing that is) because they do not want it either on them. It has worked for us.

REPLY: When the opportunity presents itself, I pay particular attention to the subs in and replaced players out. If those numbers aren't equal, I give the team a few seconds to figure it out. We don't use "deception" as the determining factor for whether or not we flag the infraction. If they have twelve (or more) on the field with no one attempting to remove himself, then we flag it. The only alternative would be to let the play go with more than eleven and that not only is contrary to Federation principles for dealing with the situation, it also excessively penalizes the offending team. Just my opinion...

However, if the game situation doesn't allow me the luxury of watching the subs and replaced players, I do use your method of counting, counting a second time and then flagging it.