Hello everyone, I coach a PeeWee football team that is governed by IHSA rules. We had a TD called back because the ref said we had 8 men on the LOS which was illegal. I know the rules are 7 players minimum, and there is no underlying rule stating this in our league rule book. I am trying to find the offical rule book for High School, does anyone know where I can find one? Bad part about this, the TD was a go ahead score and cost us our playof game. I know refs are human but to blow a fundemental call is inexcusable.

1. You are right about fundamental calls being blown are very bad.
2. You are wrong that it (that 1 call) cost you the game). How many plays total did you run? How many resulted in scores? Didn't the plays that you ran that did not result in scores also "cost you the game"?
3. Unless your league has made a rule modification, which many youth leagues do, there is no foul for having 8 players on the offensive line of scrimmage although only the 2 outside players are eligible pass receivers, even if players inside them have eligible numbers (if your league even cares about eligible numbers).
4. Who assigns the officials? The League? If so, you need to get this mistake communicated up the chain ASAP so they do not make the same error again.

TXMike, yes, you are right. I cannot blame the loss on that one call, although we did save that play for later in the game, and it did work once. Fortunately the league does have a ref review card that the coaching staff will fill out. The game is over and nothing can be done about it now. All I can hope for is the refs learned something from this, I know I did....Keep a rule book with you at all times. :)

Do you know where I can get a copy of NFHS rule book?

Call NFHS Customer Service 1-800-776-3462. They can help you.
There are five books you can order if you wish each at $6.50.
Rules Book
Case Book
Simplified and Illustrated
Handbook
Officials Manual.

The first two are all you really need, however, they all would have value.

You can get a rule book and case book from http://www.nfhs.org
The more specific page is.....

http://www.nfhs.org/catalog-index.htm

Click on the link for 2003 Publications and Products catalog. It will open a .pdf and you will need to print the order form from there.

Thanks,

Thanks everyone!

If you live anywhere near Bloomington, you can get all five books directly from the IHSA office. You MIGHT even be able to call them and order them that way.

Go to www.ihsa.org to get the phone number.

It’s good to see you come here to ask questions Coach. You seem to have a good attitude and it’s wonderful to see a coach who’s ready and willing to actually learn the rules. There’s just one piece of advice I’d like to give if you'll allow me. If and when you receive your “Books”, study them every chance you get. They are small and can be kept in your back pocket for easy access whenever you’re in the mood to look something up or just browse. But PLEASE leave them at home or in the car during your games! Yanking out a rulebook on a Ref during a game could really get you in big doo-doo and just might coast you 15 yards and at least one unsportsmanlike conduct (it will for sure if I‘m the White Hat). You defiantly want to avoid trying to “show-up” the officials in this way.
If you study and really learn the rules, you should be able to refresh the Ref’s memory as to the proper ruling and he‘ll most likely thank you for it. Good luck.

James,

I don't know that I could flag a coach if he simply asked me to look at a rulebook that he had. I'm not going to look at it if he offers it to me because I am confident in my own knowledge and application of the rules. If HE can locate the pertinent information, I will let him have do his homework and I will give him my ear for a short period of time. But if he can't locate the information, he won't get my ear.

My first year as the white hat, I had a coach ask me if I'd like to look at his copy of the rulebook after he didn't agree with my administration of an overtime period. He went so far as to state, "the Radio announcer is a former official and he says ..... blah blah blah..." The "former official turned radio announcer" was wrong :eek: I simply stated, "Coach, I know the rule but I'd be happy to review it with you after the game is over. We've got some more football to play." We never did discuss it after the game. It is amazing how forgetful a coach can get if he wins the game. :)

Now, I certainly will consider a flag if he is using the rulebook in an attempt to show up the crew. e.g. He shorts wording from the rulebook after our discussion is over.

I know this is off topic but the more and more we talk about UC on coaches I tend to get the impression that under Fed rules y'all are supposed to flag coaches for "showing you up"? Some of what I have seen you guys say you would flag a coach for really baffles me. But I am not using your code and do not attend the training under NFHS guidelines that y'all do so maybe that is why.

I would never flag a coach for just telling me to look at his rulebook. Course i doubt I would look at it anyway in a youth league game.

The NAFL (one of the many "semi-pro" leagues in the country) does have a procedure whereby coaches can "challenge" an interp or ruling. If they do so, then the R is supposed to go to the sideline and has 2 minutes to review the rulebook before ruling on the challenge. It is sort of NFL-light sort of review.

Rule 9-8-1
No coach...shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner... Examples are but not limited to:
b. Attempting to influence a decision by an official
c. Disrespectfully addressing an official
d. Indicating objections to an official's decision

Our association won't flag a coach if hes complaining about holding or if he says that it wasn't holding. We will let him say what he wants, but when he contiues to complain about the same thing we will tell him that he has recieved his warning. Next will be a flag. Basically you ignore the coach as much as possible, once he gets on your back you give him a warning.

[Edited by Snake~eyes on Oct 27th, 2003 at 02:43 PM]

It is a darn good thing we don't use Fed rules down here or we would never have a coach finish a game!!!!!!! ;-)

I had to edit my post, after reading it I realized I made a mistake. Originally I said "Reason we should flag a coach". Not should flag, but can flag.

Guys, I can see your point about pulling out the rule book. My respect is high enough for the refs to ask them if they care to look up the rule. This was a fundamental call that he should know without question. It is nice to see the views from the officiating side, and this is one forum I will visit regularly.

Welcome!
 

Coach,

I would also like to add my welcome, and thank you for your thoughtful commentary.

I do agree that the official should have known the rule and/or that his crew should have helped him on the right call. We live and die as a team, just like you and your players.

In youth ball, we do use the games as the "laboratory" for our newest officials, however, we rarely assign them without seasoned vets to also work the games. Together, we usually get the calls correct.

We know when we walk on the field that the expectation of coaches, players, and fans are that the officials call a 100% perfect game. Funny thing is, we also expect this of ourselves! Unfortunately, we do make mistakes, but we try to correct them on the field.

When we don't, we end up with a valuable learning experience and a situation that we are expected to never repeat! For the benefit of the entire association, we discuss the issue and proper ruling at our group meetings.

I’m figuring that since the rest of us NF dudes don't have killer bees, fire ants, blazing sun, hurricanes and tornadoes to deal with, we must be lacking the leather tough hide that would allow us to let Coaches to go sticking rule books into our faces. But what the hell are we doing out there in the first place. Maybe we should give both coaches rulebooks and let them hash it out among themselves and just stay home? I don't bring my rulebook with me when working games. I’m supposed to know my job. If a coach has one and he’s pulling it out to show me where I'm wrong then he’s trying to “show me up”. He’s supposed to do his job. I’m supposed to do mine. He studies strategy I study the rules.
If a coach wants to talk about a ruling on the field, he can call a time out. If he's right. He won't get charged for the TO. If he’s wrong. And has no TO left. It costs him 5 yards. If he wants to talk about a ruling after the game, and isn’t being an *** about it, fine. I might get my book or look at his and we can talk. But in reality I don't see this happening very often. After the game I try to leave as unconsciously as I can keep my head low making no eye contact if at all possible. Bottom line with me is doing what my association tells and this is the policy of both my FB and BB assocations I. Every senior official I’ve talked about this with says flag him. In baseball (which I also work) this is an auto eject.

BTW ... I might be sounding a little more hard a$$ here then I really am . I’ve had three occasions when I’ve had “books “ pulled out on me. Two in youth FB and once during an HS baseball game. I was able to convince all coaches to put their “books” away before panelizing any of them. The last one was during a Pop Warner game two weeks ago. I told the coach, who had come all the way to the hash to show me his “book”, “Coach you can stick that book where the....auuuu ...away before you get in trouble” LOL. He did and we mover on.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with James at all, I agree with Mike Sears 100%. You should know the rulebook cold so when he does take it out, say coach this discussion is over, you should reread rule 2 in the book. or what ever. thats my thoughts on the subject.

Real World
 

Reality is that most coaches either don't have a book or it's in mint condition from non-use.

There are some that probably know the rules as well or better than some officials, and those guys won't waive a book in front of you. They will just recite the rules because they know them. I respect these guys.

So, the few coaches that waive a book will either be newbies or flamers looking for a fight.

REPLY: Mike, Believe me, a lot of what you've been reading here is not a function of the Federation USC rules (which are not that much different from their NCAA counterparts), but rather the function of officials who may not know how to deal with or when to walk away from confrontation. Sorry guys...just my opinion.