I had for the first time last Saturday, a coach threaten to beat me up (after I ejected him from the game for his second unsportsmanlike.) He was an assistant coach that blew up over a misunderstanding and made a travesty out of the game and a horrible example in front of his team of 11 year-olds. Anyhow, I had the police escort him off the premises as he continued shouting swear words at me. I was wondering, how many out there have had similar experiences (and I imagine much worse.) I'm 6'4" and weigh 285lbs and imagine that might have some influence on why I've never been threatened before. But I know there are others that have and have probably been assaulted and I was just wondering if anyone wanted to share their stories?

The bigger question is what did YOU do about it? Are you just blowing it off? If you are threatened (in most states) there is a criminal offense. It needs to be reported and you (and your association) need to be firm in trying to ensure the matter is dealt with by local police and prosecutor.

If he threatened you that is assault. Also most of the states have(or are pushing for) laws that are specifically to protect officials that have stiffer penalties.

I have never been threatened before but two weeks ago the coach came up to me after the game and told me I was the worst official ever. This was the assistant coach because the head coach had been ejected and the assistant coach just wanted to whine some more.

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Po-Warner playoff last season, I was WH, 4th game of day in 85 degree heat. A's ball, 1st/goal at the 2. B player(DT) gets hurt in the pile. Asst coach is standing there, kid gets up with help and starts crying bout being "clipped". Asst coach turns to me and yells, " YOU need to watch for clips." I respond with, "free blocking zone, blocks in the back and clips are legal." He responds with, " you are full of sh*t!"

I ask him to watch his language, then I get a "F*ck you, I'll kick your ***!!" He was bout 6'4", 250 and I am 5'8" 180.....I quickly tweet to the league prez and get him over(another big boy), he yanked homeys credential badge off his neck and advised him it would be in coaches best interest to leave now, before cops are called...100% compliance...gee, haven't seen that guy since:)

Simbio,

What level was this? If this was HS, this could be something that would affect a school board. If this is Pop Warner or some other kind of league problem that might open themselves up for liability.

Whatever you do or whatever level this happen at, I would contact the Police immediately after the game. File a report and let the process go from there.

Peace

It was just little league. He was an assistant coach (one of the 5 coaches on this sideline.) When I ejected him, he ran onto the field and yelling "You want to go right now?!" I stood there calmly because a police officer was about 5 feet away approaching us. As he was being escorted off the field, he continued yelling obscenities at me. I got his id badge and turned it in to the little league reps that were there and filed a report to the association. I didn't feel I need to press any charges against him or anything. I was just informed by our arbiter that that coach has been suspended indefinitely, so hopefully he'll never get to coach little league again.

"threatened to beat me up" and "You wanna go right now?" are 2 very different statements.

Sounds like the league did the right thing though.

Sorry, I guess I should've clarified. He did run at me as he yelled that and got right up in my face before the policeman escorted him back. I guess the police officer didn't feel any law had been broken. I'm just amazed at the contiually declining sportsmanship in all athletics. Something needs to be done, but what?

Attitudes and behavior come from the top. For the league, it comes from the officers, etc. For the team, it comes from the head coach.

My first year of FB officiating, I did pee wee stuff. Before a game, one of the league bigshots asked me to "take care of those fans over there" who he indicated were usually out of control. ME?? I am here to do a game, not be a policeman for the fans. That shows really weak leadership in that organization. Another reason why I never have done non-school games again in FB.

Sounds like some leagues are better than others in terms of attitudes.

At the beginning of the game we tell the coach he is responsible for his sidelines, including fans. If we have a problem with a fan during a game we will say coach control your fan. If he can't then we will have the field commissioner remove the spectator. Simple as that.

A lot of these posts are about little league coaches.
They are the ones I've had most of my problems with.
That says a lot about the folks that are coaching these youngsters.
The last person I threw out was a LL coach. A lot of them aren't suited for coaching and definitely don't understand the rules which makes for a dangerous combination.
Our LL office here does a great job of controlling the coaches AND fans. They absolutely do not put up with ANY mouth from a fan and they expect us to flag a coach on the spot -with any out bursts from them. One coach this year was hollering 'face mask' and before I had a chance to look at him - the rec. director was on him and telling him to 'shut his mouth'.
The high school coaches are more in tune w/ the game - and we don't have as many problems with them -- but that's not to say it won't happen some day. But - the school would be in big time trouble if anything happened.

I agree there are more problems at PeeWee than higher levels, although I'd say in my area it's more fan related than coach related. I've never had one come anywhere near threatening, though. The local board came down hard after a particularly noisy (and non-fun) week a few weeks ago. We now start every game by getting the coaches together and giving them "the speech".

"Coach - you are the only one who can discuss calls we make or don't make with an official. If any of the other coaches make complaints or derogatory remarks, its 15 yards, no questions asked. If your fans get even marginally unruly, its 15 yards. If we have to throw 2 flags for this in the game, we'll clear your sideline and the fans can watch from their cars." Also - there's been a board member at each game since then to back us up and help us enforce that if necessary. It's been a much healthier and much more enjoyable game the 3 weeks since then.

At the higher levels, even starting in 7th grade, it's much better (although with the fans physically separated from us up in the stands, that's probably a good part of the reason). I do remember one fan on my side getting completely out of hand with the yelling, and the coach leans over in my ear and says, "Don't worry son, I'll send him a rulebook first thing in the morning." Got a grin from me.

William C, mbcrowder: I want to officiate wherever this magical place is LOL.... Man, I wish it was like that here...I too have found that most the problems occur at little league level, but this is also the first year I've ever flagged a varsity head coach for unsportsmanlike, as well as a varsity assistant coach. I wish our little league board would take a more active approach to controlling the fans and coaches. I swear, sometimes it seems like all the parent's come to the games for is to yell at us. The councils need to be more hardnosed and have a rep watching each field.

William C, mbcrowder: Where are you two from? Which state?

First of all - I'm in N.C.
Each league is different. We have helped some other youth leagues in our area - and they can get very rowdy - to say the least. That's why I choose not to do them anymore. After calling for 30+ years - I have realized - I don't have to take that grief. One thing about those leagues is - they are run by fans - and those fans are the coaches and manning the concession stands. So - there's really no one to police that group - as opposed to our local league - where it's run by the rec. dept. and policed by them.
One fan was yelling at the chain crew once - and it didn't take them 30 secs. to get to that guy and set him straight.

I'm in Texas. But William's right - it's different from league to league. I officiate PeeWee in two leagues - one in the Colony, one in Frisco. The Colony is where they instituted the rules I describe, and it has been great since. In Frisco, it's still your typical PeeWee league that we're all used to.

I suppose you guys are right, but as far as little league goes, I've officiated in the same one the whole time. A lot of officials are refusing to do it anymore. It's a shame.....

You know, I hear this a lot about youth leagues and unless we try even harder to bring more accountability and sportsmanship back into the game, I feel like we fail the kids and fail as officials. I guess the question is one of motivation: Why are we out there?

So, when I hear this comment, it's usually either from guys making excuses to get out of Saturday assignments or officials that need encouragement to put up with some of the crap that we receive.

Certainly, I'm not advocating becoming punching bags for immature fans, but we should work hard to preserve the sportsmanship and competitive nature of the game.

Where I live we choose what games we work as we don't have assigning associations. And I will not work the Saturday youth football ever again. I work a lot of Mondays and Thursdays and every Friday night. That's enough for me.

Now, I only got that attitude because one of the youth programs "fired" me this season because I flagged two of their coaches for USC. One came out to the hash mark to argue with a back judge and the other was profane. They can decide who they hire, but it will never be me again. And since all the programs here seem to be related in some way, I won't work any of them. I'll sleep in instead.

I don't owe these youth programs anything and they don't owe me anything. But they shouldn't complain when they have to hire high school students and parents to "work" their games.

Amen to Rich. Saying no to a youth league is not "failing the kids." The parents have failed the kids if they model lousy sportsmanship and care so much about winning that they abuse officials and allow the coaches to do the same. There are some good leagues out there, according to some posts, but the others can fend for themselves when they want officials. As for me, I never do non-school events anymore.

Hi JMN,

I agree with what you said and I hope it doesn't sound like I was wimping out and quitting etc. There are a lot of officials, good officials that have been officiating for years and have just finally had enough. It gets to a point that it's no longer fun for them. I suppose after so much time, you either reach the point that you're numb to it all, or you burn out.

And I agree that we all, as officials, need to be stiffer when enforcing unsportsmanlike behavior and that needs to be done in any sport. I think this year is the hardest I have been as far as controlling the game. I'm not dropping my flag for little ticky tack things, unless I feel that it's only going to get worse. I've been using the "Sideline Warning" to my advantage (since I am a wing official) and have found it very effective on unruly coaching staffs. The first one costs them no yards, but lets them know that you're not going to put up with it. If they continue, throw it again and give them 5 yards. I don't think we should be Nazis on the field, but something has to be done, and it must be done by all of us.

Anyone else want to put in their two cents? Opinions?

These youth leagues are run by 'fans' and coached by 'fans' and watched by 'fans'. Not a real coach or administrator in the bunch. No one has any sense of perspective or decorum. They all are new to Fed rules and think everything is NFL. They've got these kids running reverses and flea flickers when they can't even line up straight over half the time. If they would spend as much time teaching these kids the fundamentals of football as they do drawing up their kooky plays and complaining about rules they have no understanding of, maybe they'd have better players coming out of those leagues.

Safety, learning, fairness and competition should be the focus of these leagues, in that order. More often than not, the first three get the short shrift.

Don't forget teamwork and learning how to win and lose.

We had a flag football tournament for some 6-7 year olds. It was their championship game. The rules stated that a player who scored couldn't run the ball if his team was winning. A TD is 7 pts. no try. Well, of course, the home team scores and the fans go wild. Then the same number kid for the visitors scored. Three TDs each for these two kids. Toward the end of the fourth quarter, the fans were getting belligerent. The one team fumbled, and the defense recovered. The rule is for this league that a fumble is dead and belongs to the fumbler. Parents were livid. The game ended at 21-21. When I put the ball overhead to indicate the end of the game, the administrator came out on the field. "This is a championship game!!!! We have to do the 10 yard sudden DEATH overtime!!" I said to him, "No way." I went to the announcers' booth and declared, "If this is a championship game, Congratulations, you have co-champions." He announced it over the loud speaker and people seemed to come back to earth. One of the kids came up to me and said, "But nobody won!!" I replied, "Everybody won! Now go get your hot dog soda and trophy" Sometimes people forget who the players are. During the fourth quarter, I tried to make sure I had a clear path to the car. Even the game administration began losing their heads.

Basically these LL need to be run by a group that will go to bat for the officials - in case there are problems.
Like I said earlier - we are backed 100% and we know we don't have to deal with a lot of crap from the coaches and fans.
One other poster noted that these leagues were run by coaches / fans / parents etc. and in a lot of cases that's correct. In those cases - the coaches aren't going to police themselves - as they are generally the problem.
I've ref'ed for a loooooong time -and have reached that stage that I don't need the experience/money / and especially the headaches a small group can give you.
As long as it isn't a headache - I'll do it -- but I have zero tolerance for any coach questioning a call -- absolutely zero. If they have a question - that's one thing - ask away. If they question our judgment -- that's another.
For those of you out there doing these - and having problems - get w/ the leaders of the program and have a long talk w/ them about how you expect it to be run - from an officials side.

We've had some success this year with improving the backing our association gets from the teams. One of our board members attended the Youth Football Board meetings to understand what is expected by the youth team leadership and share a perspective on what is expected by the officials. It's been a good relationship with a positive outcome.

If you don't need the money, experience, and can't deal with the headaches, then maybe it is time to give up youth ball. In my opinion, doing this only for the money, experience, and expecting to not to have to deal with people who disagree with you is very short-sighted. And, if you want to walk away because coaches question your judgement, what gives?

Do you apply the same logic to Friday nights? Do you only take assignments where you don't get a headache?

Again, what's your motivation for being on the field? Is it making money, gaining experience, and not being questioned on every call OR is it to serve the kids and the game? Let's make sure we're in it for the right reasons. You can weather a lot of controversy (which I believe to be inherent in officiating) if you're there for the right reasons!

JMN
It appears you have taken this out of context. A lot of this thread is about the troubles we all have had in games -- especially youth leagues.
In no way am I in it for the money. As we've all said on here - with the dangerous situations out there with leagues that have no real way of controlling their fans and coaches -- we have a right to say - 'fix the problem' before we get out there.
I have worked plenty of games FREE - to help the kids playing - to help the younger officials -- to teach coaches ---to help the league that helps look after us.
I'm just saying - if it's dangerous -- no amount of money makes it worth it. If all you are going to get are headaches and problems from coaches/fans who have no clue along with the 'higher ups' not backing you up - no amount of money - or gaining experience time - is worth it.
It's not our responsibility to teach the coaches / administrators how to run the league. We can help them w/ rules and try to teach good sportsmanship - but we have the right to be / feel protected. If we can't be protected - and feel safe -- somebody is not doing their job and somebody has crossed the line. That's where it's not worth it. I've seen it happen and it isn't pretty - or good for the kids to witness.

You guys who are associated in any way with youth leagues should check out the National Alliance for Youth Sports (NAYS).

"The goal of the National Alliance for Youth Sports is to make sports safe and positive for America’s youth. The Alliance believes that this can only happen if:
-We provide children with a positive introduction to
youth sports;
-That administrators, coaches, and game officials are
well trained;
-Parents complete an orientation to understand the
important impact sports has on their child’s
development and:
-Youth sports are implemented in accordance with the
National Standards for Youth Sports."

http://www.nays.org

Get this info to the league leadership. Check out the NAYS website.

Last season......
 

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The P/W "Mighty-mite bowl", 6-8's, full on NFHS rules, cept no more than 5 B players can rush, no score kept......yeah right!!!! The B rush rule was easy, no score was shown on the board, but those kids and coaches knew that score!!! T/O's with 25 seconds left and A at B's 10??? I aint that stupid. 5 games that day, all 3 man and some good little guys, damn I was sore!, worked WH again the next day for 5 more, this time jr midget and Midget, first 3 we had 4, no-show for last 2 games, again 3 man. Covereing that off side from WH is tiring!!!!!!!

Here our 3-man mechanic is R, H, and L... no U. I'd suggest that for your area at the peewee levels - much more activity on the wings, and R can pick up most of U's responsibilities easily, as R is usually much taller than the players.

same here

Compared to officiating college intramurals, youth leagues are a breeze and high school is a downright privilege. I've been calling intramurals at the Univ. of Tennessee (where I am a student) and I am convinced that no player in the entire league (something like 220 teams) knows the rules of flag football, or any NFHS enforcements (which is basically what flag football goes by). Not to mention that I am one or maybe four or five semi-competent officials in the whole system. We have folks show up to officiate wearing jeans and boots, or that like to play with their flag while the game is going on, or that like to talk to the people they know on the sideline during a play. It gets a bit ridiculous. Add to it that we barely get paid minimum wage and work four games a night, and it gets to the point where it's not hardly worth it. The players don't care who you are, to them you are just another student. If they get thrown out, so what? They'll just be back the next week and they'll remember who you are.

I got threatened by this one player I ejected a couple of weeks ago. After I flagged him for USC, he ripped his jersey off, got right up in my face, bumped me, pushed me, and called me everything in the book. I proceeded to toss him, which fired him up even more, and then I yelled to the supervisors on duty to call the police. They finally got him out of there, with him threatening me all the way off the field. Turns out the guy wasn't even a student and had used a fake name and ID number when he signed in. The other players on that team didn't even know who he was. I think all the guys on that particular team were punished for letting him play, but they didn't really care. The problem is, there's not much way to be completely preventative of something like that happening, although they do periodic ID checks throughout the season.

I'm not in it for the money, but the intramurals have gotten to the point where they are not enjoyable any more. I am somewhat regarded as the one of the most knowledgeable football officials with RecSports, and I will be the R in the championship game this Wednesday night, but I think this will be the last year I work intramurals. I'd rather work 3 hours and make $60 on youth leagues than work 4 hours and make a little over $20 with the intramurals, not to mention intramural games not ending until after midnight.

[Edited by bigwes68 on Nov 17th, 2003 at 12:48 AM]

I'm sorry that your exsperience with IM's has not been the best Bigwes68. I went to UT undergrad and now run the IM program at Purdue University. I know Jackie well enough to know that he won't stand for the actions of the player you described. I have no doubts that Jackie would want you to stay and help improve the program during your time at UT.

Having done Flag for years, your right, players don't know the rules. Mostly because the rules actually are very different to regular football. We use most of the same concepts and penalty enforcement principles but flag football is about speed and quickness, not strength. Don't get to discouraged. We all enjoy progressing to higher level games. But also remeber where you came from. Someone gave you a chance to be as good as you are at your current level.

Do you still do the finals in Neyland?

Intramural Officiating
 

I also have officiated intramurals for the past few years concentrating on flag, but also doing softball and volleyball. Effective leadership and support of officials need to be in place starting from the director on down to the supervisors.

Any ejection due to sportsmanship issues carries an automatic one game suspension and a required meeting with the director. IDs are checked every week and at least one supervisor is on duty on each field or court to deal with injuries, unruly players, etc.

I agree player knowledge of the rules is an issue (officials too, I had a back judge blow the play dead after a punt returner signaled fair catch, but that's a different topic). I'd suggest increasing the team registration fee by $7 and give the captain a rule book.

The pay sucks, but I enjoy what I'm doing. I've met many and gotten to know many players and fellow officials and that is worth the occasional jackass on the field. I'd work for free (maybe not as many games however).

I returned to youth league football last season after several seasons with adult flag football. Youth leagues cannot come close to the abuse, stupidity and downright arrogance of adult flag football.

The league boasts it is the largest flag league in the country. In reality it is a bunch of overgrown kids who are either wannabees, has-beens or never-was who haven't got a clue. Sometimes they show up drunk. Have been known to physically strike officials and generally act without any respect for anything.

They don't still do the finals in Neyland, unfortunately. I think that changed when they got rid of the turf and went to natural grass about 10 years ago.

Jackie is (well, was) a very good program director and I knew I could count on him anytime I needed help with something intramurals-related. However, he resigned/retired last week. We let him do the honorary coin toss at the men's flag football championship because it would be his last-ever intramural game.

I don't know what they ended up doing about that guy that nearly assaulted me that night, but I think the whole team got into quite a bit of trouble. They don't usually check ID's every week here during the regular season--maybe once during the regular season, and then every week in the playoffs. Maybe after something like what happened to me, this will change.

Thanks for the info on Jackie bigwes. Sorry to hear that he retired. I know he had to have surgery last year. Keep up the good work for the kids in Orange and White.

I was at the University of Tennessee for three years working on a master's degree. I NEVER officiated intramurals. Rather, I joined one of the local high school officiating associations and worked football, baseball, and basketball -- almost year round. Why officiate for $5 an hour when you can work subvarsity HS games for $30-$40?

I played intramural sports at UT. 90% of the officials were truly horrible, but I don't expect much more than that when people are paid so poorly.

Rich,

Please don't send this out to my students. I have a hard enough time recruiting as it is. I have no illusions that most of the Intramural Officials hired at most institutions are not that good. We don't pay well, my kids get around $6.50 a game. But, as I tell our captains at thier meetings, these kids have decided to come out and work these games instead of flipping burgers at a dining hall. It is also a great place to start out as an official. At Purdue, we have around 350 basketball teams. Out of 85 officials, 10 or 12 of my kids hav e become licensed in the state of Indiana. Most don't have a desire to go on but some do. Whave established a Football officials association for Indiana recently. One of the suggestions that we talked about in regard to not bringing in new officials is to look at kids in IMs. Most of my kids won't get licensed but some will. And even if they move on after graduation, they will keep working where ever they go.

Sorry, I'm off my soapbox now. I hope you enjoyed Knoxville during your master years. Indiana is quite a bit different to good ol Tennessee. Where are you at now Rich?

Fans
 

Our league has a rule where the coach is responsible for the sidelines. The refs can also eject any fans as well. If the fan is ejected, their son/daughter is also ejected for 1 game. If it happens again, the parent has to attend a anger management class and they can not attend another game that season. I am not sure if the child is removed for the season. I am only doing Pop Warner for the experience as its my first year. As soon as I get to HS, I will only do Pop Warner once in a blue moon to help the scheduler out. I am obviously not in this for the money.