Is this a snap infraction? (NFL)

[Robert Goodman]

From a compilation on YouTube. I can't see anything illegal about it, just that the snapper goofed and the officials bailed the team out instead of allowing the busted play.

The snap seems to me to proceed exactly as it would have, with the ball leaving the snapper's hand where the quarterback would've had his hands, except the quarterback's hands weren't there. I don't see any hitch in the delivery, nor a failure to release the ball at the end of the movement.

[JRutledge]

All I would ask is what is the NFL rule? All that you stated might not be the only reason it is a foul at the NFL level. So without a reference to that, I have no idea. But also you cannot have a snap that planned fumble of some kind at the other levels. So maybe that is the philosophy of the NFL that is different than other levels.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All I would ask is what is the NFL rule? All that you stated might not be the only reason it is a foul at the NFL level. So without a reference to that, I have no idea. But also you cannot have a snap that planned fumble of some kind at the other levels. So maybe that is the philosophy of the NFL that is different than other levels.

It obviously wasn't a planned play, which in NCAA and Fed rules wouldn't kill the ball anyway, but be flagged live. But I'm pretty sure the NFL never legislated against that anyway.

NFL requirements for snapping the ball are the same as the other American codes. For a long time the NFL kept an old rule that forbade extension of hands by a back in position to receive the snap before the snap unless he went on to receive the snap -- which the NFL interpreted as a false start unless that player at least touched the snap. However, NFL got rid of that provision several years ago after it killed the play when the Dolphins snapped the ball accidentally past the QB, who had his hands under center but didn't get a touch on it. This clip is more recent than that rule change.

Somebody commenting on YouTube is telling me he sees a hesitation in the movement of the ball during that snap. They have an excellent slo-mo end zone view that looks like the motion was perfectly continuous. The snapper's hand can be seen briefly remaining in the vicinity after he loses the ball, but body English is not really going to affect the motion of the ball. I could see a problem if the ball had stayed on his hand for an extra bit, but it didn't seem to. The ball still had enough backward momentum after it hit his butt that it landed more than a yard behind it, which is additional evidence that it was still moving backward when it left his hand.

The only major codes that differ on the requirements for a legal snap are the Canadian ones, where the snap must go between the legs in a toes-to-heels direction, but the ball need not leave the snapper's possession immediately at the end of the motion.

[JRutledge]

Again, what is the NFL rule? That is the only way we will get to the bottom of this. Saying that the rules are the same is not enough if you want a real answer. So what does the NFL rule actually say about snaps or even planned fumbles? Because if there is a rule or interpretation that talks about this more than just a hitch in the movement, then that might be your answer. I do not claim to know the NFL rule. And even the hitch in the snap is a judgment call. But I am wondering if there is more to the rule than what was stated. The player that was supposed to get the snap didn't. I am wondering if that has something to do with the call or the rule. But that is a guess.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again, what is the NFL rule? That is the only way we will get to the bottom of this. Saying that the rules are the same is not enough if you want a real answer. So what does the NFL rule actually say about snaps or even planned fumbles? Because if there is a rule or interpretation that talks about this more than just a hitch in the movement, then that might be your answer. I do not claim to know the NFL rule. And even the hitch in the snap is a judgment call. But I am wondering if there is more to the rule than what was stated. The player that was supposed to get the snap didn't. I am wondering if that has something to do with the call or the rule. But that is a guess.

Peace

A snap is a backward pass*. The snap must be received by a player who is not on the line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an eligible backfield receiver, or quarterback under center, it can be recovered and advanced by any player.

*NFL defines "pass" so as to include handing the ball. This was the old rule before NCAA defined "handing the ball" separately. Strangely enough, NFL too now has a definition of "handing the ball", but never excluded it from its definition of "pass". Go figure.

Furthermore:

It is not necessary that the snap be between the snapper’s legs, but it must be one quick and continuous motion of the hand or hands of the snapper. The ball must leave or be taken from his hands during this motion.

So between the bits I've italicized in the passages above, they have exactly the same requirements as the other major American codes: that the ball be sent backwards in one quick, continuous motion of either or both hands, with the ball leaving his hand(s).

The only substantial difference I can see is that NFL's rule, by requiring only that the snap itself be a backwards pass (or handing), rather than having "backwards" as one of the conditions of the ball's motion (along with quick and continuous), could arguably be more permissive, if you could imagine some continuous snapping motion that results in a backward pass (or handing) but is not backwards throughout the motion. Hard to conceive, but I could see that as a byproduct of separating out the "backwards" requirement in a separate article. But still, if the snap is legal by NCAA or Fed standards, it must be by NFL's as well.

[JRutledge]

I am asking is there an interpretation that specifies what could be illegal here. Not all rules are written the same or have the same issues. This was a snap that did not go to the QB or running back that was behind the center. So I am wondering (and I believe there is some provision) the snap has to go to certain people and if not it is a penalty. So far you have not given that distinction for this rule, you are only focusing on the continuation of the motion. I do not remember where to look up NFL rules, and in the end this is not that important as I am in basketball mode with camps going on now. But I would like to see if there is something else to this than just the motion of the snap. Usually, these guys do not get basic rules like this incorrect.

Peace