Would you have done the same

johnSandlin · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 02:26pm

Last night I was helping out a crew in my area by working a junior high football game for them.

With a minute left to go in the game, them home team was up 20-16. The visiting team had 4th down and 10 yards to go running a sweep left to try to obtain the first down.

As the play rounded the corner, the ball carrier(visiting team) fumbles the ball, and the home team recovers.

The coach of the home team realizing that all they need is to run the clock out is take a knee a couple of times.

On first down, QB of home team takes a knee. Visiting team calls time out. After meeting his team half way between the spot of the football and the visiting team's sideline, the visiting coach yells at the home coach to play football. Stating that taking a knee in junior high football is not football.

The visiting coach instructs is defensive linemen that as soon as the ball is snapped, "To hit somebody and knock them down." I told the umpire of our crew, that if this happens, we were going to hit somebody with a personal foul penalty.

The next snap, the left defensive tackle comes across the line and just bulls over the right offensive tackle, and which I immediately threw my flag for a 15 yard personal foul penalty.

Did I do this right? Would any of you done any thing differently then what I did?

Here was my thought process:
1. The home team secured the victory with the fumble recovery.
2. The visiting coach had NO right to yell at the home coach for the quarterback taking a knee to end the game.
3. The visiting coach had NO right instructing his defensive linemen to come across at the snap and intentionally knock somebody down.
4. This game was played very well by teams and the kids gave a GREAT effort, why allow the game to end on such a poor note due to a poor decision by one coach(visiting coach)

[Edited by johnSandlin on Oct 23rd, 2003 at 02:28 PM]

JasonTX · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 02:44pm

What was the flag for? From what I read all the hitting occured before the ball was dead. You can't just make the rules up as you go. Even if everyone knows the QB is taking a knee, there is no foul for the hits you described, unless it was after the play was obviously over. You never know that QB may just decide to rub it in their face and instead of kneeling down takes off and runs for a TD and you have a flag on the ground for the defense blocking the offense. Now what do you do, penalize them for a legal block. Let the play finish and then any hits that occur afterwards can then be determined if they are worthy of a flag.

Bob M. · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 02:55pm

REPLY: I agree with Jason. There's absolutely no reason to flag this, unless it was a personal foul, e.g., a forearm to the helmet of the offensive lineman. No one (least of all you) can be sure that the offense's coach didn't intend to run a play after hearing his opponent's challenge. As long as the ball is still live, everyone must continue to protect himself. Neither you nor the offense should nver expect the defense to just stop playing in such a situation. What if the QB muffed the snap?

johnSandlin · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 03:02pm

Those were some of the questions I was running through my mind last night on the way home after the game.

The other factor that played heavily on my mind was the fact the winning coach informed me as loud as he could without yelling at me, that he was just going to take a knee and let the clock run out.

I guess factoring all this up, as much, as I did not agree with the coach tatics of the visiting coach, I read more into this, then there needed to be.

Snake~eyes · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 03:19pm

I have a no call.

There's many things that could happen, a fumbled snap could occur ectect.

BoBo · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 03:47pm

As the White Hat in my crew I always try and communicate with the coach and the qb in these situatuions. If they want to take a knee before the half or the end of the game I tell them to let me know. This now allows me to be ready for a qucik whistle. I also take the opportunity at the end of the game to remind the lineman to protect themselves and the QB. By this I mean not to just stand there but be prepared for a hit by the defense.

If the game is say pretty much out of reach I will tell the defense in a round bout way to use their heads and not to do anything stupid. May even throw in "we have had a great game tonight and lets all finish with some class."

Preventive Officiating!!

simpson · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 03:54pm

Our umpire tells the defense, "If the QB takes a knee, don't hit him."

Then the WH is quick w/ the whistle and the U, LJ and HL are close enough to talk to the players and keep things from getting out of hand.

Just curious, how much do you guys let one coach yell at the other coach before you flag him?

Rich · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 04:02pm

Authorized conferences are held in front of the team box or between the hash marks. How could there possibly be a timeout held between the hashmarks and the sidelines?

Rich

yankeesfan · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by simpson
Our umpire tells the defense, "If the QB takes a knee, don't hit him."

Then the WH is quick w/ the whistle and the U, LJ and HL are close enough to talk to the players and keep things from getting out of hand.

Just curious, how much do you guys let one coach yell at the other coach before you flag him?

what if you tell the defense the qb is taking a knee and they end up running a play even after the offense tells you they are taking a knee? the defense must not always assume a knee will be taken. the officials are better off to let the play happen and act accordingly. it will keep you out of trouble. i dont care how quick the whistle is, as soon as the ball is snapped that defensive player is coming across to hit someone.

[Edited by yankeesfan on Oct 23rd, 2003 at 10:39 PM]

Snake~eyes · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:27pm

When they're taking a knee I'm not saying anything if the score is close. If the team is winning by 50 points then I'm going to tell them, if they take a knee don't hit them.

Because if some defense guy waxes an offense guy then the coach is going to be all over you.

CKRef · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:53pm

There was an earlier thread about taking a knee. The advice I liked and have since used was tell them to "play and protect themselves, but nothing reckless".

simpson · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 10:56am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yankeesfan
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by simpson
Our umpire tells the defense, "If the QB takes a knee, don't hit him."

what if you tell the defense the qb is taking a knee and they end up running a play even after the offense tells you they are taking a knee?

Again, I said our umpire says "IF the QB takes a knee, don't hit him." You're never allowed to hit a player that takes a knee. All we're doing is reminding them of the rules. It's no different than telling the defense to lay off the center in scrimmage kick formation, if the offense shifts out of scrimmage kick formation, the defense can play normal. If the QB doesn't take a knee, the defense plays normal.

seanireland · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 11:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by johnSandlin
Those were some of the questions I was running through my mind last night on the way home after the game.

The other factor that played heavily on my mind was the fact the winning coach informed me as loud as he could without yelling at me, that he was just going to take a knee and let the clock run out.

I guess factoring all this up, as much, as I did not agree with the coach tatics of the visiting coach, I read more into this, then there needed to be.

You were there, so you know best. The coach telling you that he is running a "special" play during the down is informing the official. Why else would a coach inform an official of the next play? When the coach informs the official that his QB is taking a knee, he is asking for special protection by getting a quick whistle. If the QB doesn't take a knee after the head coach told me he WAS, I'd flag the USC for attempting to influence a decision by an official (9-8-1b) as well as Unfair Act (9-9-3).

We used to do just like you did here, but some of the posts have opened up certain possibilities that the defense can get the ball back!!!! So, I will be more likely to let the play happen until the knee goes down.
The QB may pause before he goes down -- That allows the linemen to go at it for a while-- Or he may try to pull a Dan Marino a la New York Jets vs Dolphins: result TD. Which, I believe, if the coach doesn't inform an official before the play, would be legal in NF.

parepat · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 02:07pm

As an umpire I tell the defense that the QB is taking a knee, and that unless he fumbles the snap, don't hit him. Meanwhile the WH asks the QB if he is taking a knee. He then tells him to go down immediately. We then have a quick whistle. This prevents most of the problems that can arise. Right or wrong this is the way we do it.

Mike Simonds · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 04:25pm

Last Friday night I was the umpire in a game that featured 2 teams in the top 20 varsity high school ranking statewide. Very well played and well officiated game. Close game all the way down to the final minute. Underdogs intercept a pass in the endzone for a touchback. All they have to do is to take a knee for two plays to run-out the clock and they will win the game 22-20. We tell both teams to continue to play hard and clean but to stop immediately if the quarterback takes a knee or if they hear a whistle. First play a linebacker jumps in the air and kicks the center in the chest. He claimed he was trying to kick the snap out of the center's hands. I penalized him and he was ejected from the game.

Next play, the QB takes a knee and the game is over. Immediately afterwords another defender starts verbally abusing the officials with foul language. After consulting each other after the game we decided to report the actions of this player to the league. The player denied his words and actions but our referee is a circuit court judge and he witnessed the entire scene.

Our league has a policy that any players ejected from the game are ineligible to participate in their next game. The school principals and league authorities read the game report and review the film to determine that the ejection was warranted. I heard at our weekly meeting the league supported our decision to eject the first player and he will be sitting out the next game. Additionally, the league has also decided to suspend the other player for his actions after the game.

In summary, we cannot tell the players and coaches anything except to act fairly within the rules. Its the kids' rights to play hard and cleanly within the rules even if the offense is going to down the ball. As long as the contact is not a foul and it stops as soon as the down is over and the whistle is blown.