Legal Tackle or no NFHS

[Juxone]

On a pass Defender "B", tackles receiver "A" by wrapping arm(s) around the helmet of the receiver, there is no actual "grabbing" of the facemask with the hands but the forearms wrap around the facemask and helmet (see clip below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK5b1MN1XvM&authuser=0

is this a foul? Note the play is captured from two different cameras. The flag was for a facemask but this question is not about the facemask flag, but hypothetical that IF the facemask was not grabbed directly, would the tackle have been a foul in anyevent.

[JRutledge]

Embedding is your friend.



What is wrong with it? You can tackle someone hard in the game of football. He did not pick him up and the ball handler spun and kind of gave the defender leverage to slam him. I see nothing wrong with that tackle and it was more of how both players moved that caused it in the first place.

Peace

[Juxone]

Absent the facemask, I am not saying there was anything wrong, per say, it does "look" like the tackle was done with the head, but wanted input from others.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Juxone

Absent the facemask, I am not saying there was anything wrong, per say, it does "look" like the tackle was done with the head, but wanted input from others.

When did tackling by the head become illegal? I am not saying the tackle is safe, but again what rule was violated? The only rule I can imagine is unnecessary roughness, but that suggests the runner is vulnerable and defenseless and that he was not. Again, the runner kind of spun in a way that allowed himself to get slammed. I could even make a case the runner helped cause the ability to be slammed. I would need more direction to just call a foul. We need to as officials stop trying to penalize every hard hit. This was not targeting. He did not hit him in the head. The runner was trying to get away and the defender did not have him under control and then slam him. The kid's safety is certainly a priority, but there must be a rule violated. A hard tackle or hard hit is not in itself a rules violation. That is why I am a little perplexed by what we are you want us to penalize?

Peace

[HLin NC]

You posted the exact same video on another forum wanting to know if it was a facemask or not. Now you come here and ask if it's legal.

Are these your plays or calls or someone elses? If someone else's, it isn't really fair to them to be airing these on different forums looking for affirmation.

You're starting to remind me of a kid who runs and asks his mom to do something after dad said no.

[JRutledge]

Well, the play is on YouTube. Someone put it there. Not sure why it cannot be discussed even if the party of the play did not post it? We have to get over the fact that plays that are made public need permission from the officials involved to discuss on any level. The video itself has no such information about what was called or what was legal or illegal about the play. That was only discussed in this kind of forum (I cannot speak for all places this could be discussed). Video is everywhere and will be used for discussions.

Peace

[Juxone]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

You posted the exact same video on another forum wanting to know if it was a facemask or not. Now you come here and ask if it's legal.

Are these your plays or calls or someone elses? If someone else's, it isn't really fair to them to be airing these on different forums looking for affirmation.

You're starting to remind me of a kid who runs and asks his mom to do something after dad said no.

Yes, I did because the question was about a facemask call. IN the question I posted here.. for the purpose of discussion only --IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN A FACE MASK-- would the tackle be legal. It is a discussion of the tackle assuming NO face mask (which there was) but that is outside the scope of the question.

In the facemask question, the wing supported the call by the back judge-- the other post was simply asking, from those who don the stripes HOW they saw it... not for second-guessing.

[HLin NC]

I understand video is out there JRut.

My point was if this juxone is an official and works with the crew seen here, I'd be highly pissed off if a crewmate was running around posting video on multiple platforms wanting to know if I or someone else on the crew made the right call or not. I guess I didn't phrase it well originally as I could have.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I understand video is out there JRut.

My point was if this juxone is an official and works with the crew seen here, I'd be highly pissed off if a crewmate was running around posting video on multiple platforms wanting to know if I or someone else on the crew made the right call or not. I guess I didn't phrase it well originally as I could have.

I guess I do not see a big issue either way. I have posted plays of my crew for review. I do it all the time in basketball and often those are my plays or plays I was involved in. That never bothers me unless there was a discussion under no circumstances they did not want a play to be discussed. I guess I have been around video long enough it is a fair question to ask about what others think. This is kind of the reason sites like RefQuest are not becoming popular in the officiating community. The premise of that site is to show plays for discussion with mutliple people from different locations, not just your crew or friends if you wish.

Peace

[Juxone]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When did tackling by the head become illegal? I am not saying the tackle is safe, but again what rule was violated? The only rule I can imagine is unnecessary roughness, but that suggests the runner is vulnerable and defenseless and that he was not. Again, the runner kind of spun in a way that allowed himself to get slammed. I could even make a case the runner helped cause the ability to be slammed. I would need more direction to just call a foul. We need to as officials stop trying to penalize every hard hit. This was not targeting. He did not hit him in the head. The runner was trying to get away and the defender did not have him under control and then slam him. The kid's safety is certainly a priority, but there must be a rule violated. A hard tackle or hard hit is not in itself a rules violation. That is why I am a little perplexed by what we are you want us to penalize?

Peace

I agree with you, generally speaking, but my question really came as a result of thinking about the facemask foul in general. Although many tackles during a football game involve full body-to-body contact, some involve players grabbing onto any part of the opponent that’s accessible, including jerseys, shoes and pant legs, which is permitted by the rules of the game. However, making a tackle while touching any part of an opponent’s face mask is illegal and, when called, results in a penalty against the offending player and team. While I have never a tackle like the one shown --despite the insistence of the occasion coaches screaming-- it did make me ponder the rule. If for example, the defender's arm came between the top of the face mask and bottom of the face opening (across the eyes) would this be considered an inadvertent contact with the face mask? AGAIN the question was posed simply for discussion. Not second-guessing anyone since the question was posted as purely hypothetical.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Juxone

However, making a tackle while touching any part of an opponent’s face mask is illegal and, when called, results in a penalty against the offending player and team.

That is not true. Touching a facemask is never a foul. You have to grab or pull on it on some level. Even grabbing the helmet is not illegal, but grabbing the helmet opening is. Do not make this so broad that any contact with certain things are fouls.

Originally Posted by Juxone

While I have never a tackle like the one shown --despite the insistence of the occasion coaches screaming-- it did make me ponder the rule. If for example, the defender's arm came between the top of the face mask and bottom of the face opening (across the eyes) would this be considered an inadvertent contact with the face mask? AGAIN the question was posed simply for discussion. Not second-guessing anyone since the question was posted as purely hypothetical.

Well we have rules that address this. And it is not a penalty to touch a facemask, you have to grab it on some level to have a foul.

Peace

[Juxone]

I guess this is what comes from "overthinking" it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Juxone

Absent the facemask, I am not saying there was anything wrong, per say, it does "look" like the tackle was done with the head, but wanted input from others.

i didn't see contact above the shoulders. The arms went high, near but not on the neck. Basically forearm on collarbone.