I'm trying to get this straight--don't know if I gave the ruling.

Scrimmage kick down. R1 gives an invalid fair catch signal while the ball was clearly beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the kick, and, while the ball was clearly loose, the BJ sounds his whistle.

My thinking is that the PSK spot is the spot where the kick ended, which in this case is the IW spot. Any words of wisdom out there?

i assume you want NF. We have had this discussion before and if I recall we have had some disagreement. This is not a psk foul. The IW was blown before the kick ended. Therefore you do not have a spot of reference for the ending of the kick. Previous spot, enforce the invalid fair catch signal against R and if K reaches the line to gain, 1st and ten for K. If K does not reach the line to gain, replay fourth down. I am sure when the casebook is printed next year we will have some situations like this to discuss.

REPLY: I agree completely with keystoneref. At the end of the down, i.e. when the IW sounds, K actually has possession of the ball. Therefore, PSK cannot apply. It's got to be treated as a foul during a loose ball play. One more example of the naivety of the PSK myth which claims that "possession changes when the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone." It doesn't!

ok here we go with more PSK wooo hooooooo what would this board be without psk..

2-23-2 A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the becomes dead while not in player possession.

4-2-3j the ball becomes dead when...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertantly.

table 6-4 3 and 4 respectively a kick not recovered by either team belongs to R.

4-2-3 a deals with inadvertant whistles and says during a down or a down in which the penalty is declined.....a legal forward pass or snap in flight, or during a legal kick, the down shall be replayed.


those are the relevant rule references..so we have a down with a penalty, so if K wants to replay the down they have to decline the penalty. If K accepts the penalty for the invalid fair catch then R is in final possession because the ball became dead without being in anyones possession, which we all know belongs to R. So there is PSK available here and if it is available we will penalize from the end of the kick unless the invalid fair catch happened behind the inadvertant whistle spot.

Guys:

Thanks for the replies. The more I think about this, the more I would like to see the NFHS case book for next year. This would be really interesting if it was 4th and 4--without PSK K gets a first down.

I guess I am leaning towards saying PSK does apply. The kick ends when the IW sounds, and I would say the location of the ball at that time would be the spot where the kick ends (i.e. the PSK basic spot). Furthermore, the IW "replay" rules mention a down when a foul is declined; I would say that if a foul is accepted here, then the IW rules would not require an automatic replay of the down. K can then decline the foul and have a replay or have R's foul enforced as a PSK foul with R keeping the ball.

Finally, I think allowing R to keep the ball if the foul is accepted is just the most fair thing to do in this situation. This is also consistent with the intent of PSK, which so many people like to talk about. Look at the 4th and 4 situation mentioned above. If the foul is enforced from the previous spot, you are excessively penalizing R for the BJ's mistake.

CMatthews I still do not agree so tell me what you would do in this situation. 4th and 11 on the 50, K1 kicks the ball from a kick formation and while the ball is in the air R1 pushes in the back at the 30. Almost immediately after the penalty again while the ball is still in the air the BJ has an inadvertant whistle. How are you possibly going to know where the ball was when the whistle blew, so how are you going to have a spot where the kick ends? The NF is going to have to publish casebook plays on these unusual circumstances. It is going to be interesting to see if they adopt the NCAA approved ruling on this type of play, which can be found at http://www.ncaa.org football rules, approved ruling 4-2-1.

If the Fed addresses these situations, I think they will conclude that PSK enforcement does apply, particularly when you consider the philosophy underlying PSK enforcement in the first place.

The basic premise underlying PSK enforcement is that, after making a conscious decision to surrender possession of the ball by a scrimmage kick, the kicking team should not realize the "gift" of a PSK penalty by the receiving team and a possible first down. I think you can see this philosophy at work in the revision of the case play on the NFHS website concerning the double foul scenario (Situation 13). Although the rulebook is ambiguous (as has been thoroughly discussed on all of the boards), this philosophy also is inherent in the requirements that a PSK foul must occur after the kick has crossed the neutral zone and the kick must end beyond the neutral zone. While the kick is behind the neutral zone, the kicking team can advance it and it may not be fair to say that the kicking team made an irrevocable decision to surrender possession of the ball. Therefore, it would be inconsistent with the PSK concept to enforce a penalty occurring after an inadvertant whistle that otherwise meets the PSK requirements against the receiving team from the previous spot and give the kicking team a "windfall." If the kicking team wants to accept the penalty and trump the inadvertant whistle, then enforce from the PSK spot. Otherwise, rekick.

One of the requirements to have PSK enforcement is that R is in posession of the ball when it becomes dead. Since the IW caused the ball to become dead, the ball would still be in K's posession, therfore you cannot have PSK enforcement. Penalize R 5 yards from the previous spot and replay 4th down or award K 1st down if it was 5 or less yards to the line to gain.

**
Rule 6-2-7:
"When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possesson, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R...."

The scrimmage kick becomes dead when the IW occurs, so the ball is awarded to R, and PSK applies. It's no different than if the kick goes out of bounds.

Who gets the choice on replay or not? K. Must not have been R's ball. No PSK.

There is no choice on the replay. The choice is on penalty acceptance. If the penalty is not accepted, the replay is automatic.

The choice is for penalty acceptance, not a replay of the down. If the penalty is declined, the replay is automatice on a loose ball play.

Keystone,
In your situation, unless the IW culprit had a good look at the ball when he sounded it, or anyone else, I would say the end of the kick is where it first touches the ground or a player. I do whole heartedly agree that the federation needs to clarify some of this but, I do believe PSK applies, and I have cited rules that support it...to quote one of the veterans here, can you do the same to dispute it?

REPLY: biglaz...I believe that this rule citation is included to cover the specific situation when a scrimmage kick rolls to a stop and either K touches it, or both teams let it sit there with no one attempting to gain possession. I doubt that the rules editors expected that we would inject an inadvertent whistle into a scrimmage kick scenario that would cause the ball to become dead with no one in possession. In fact, in NF 8-2-1c, they explicitly exclude an IW from the definition of a TD when no player is in possession. My guess (and it's only that--a guess) is that they probably should have done that in 6-2-7 as well.

Rule 6-2-7:
"When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possesson, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R...."

The scrimmage kick becomes dead when the IW occurs, so the ball is awarded to R, and PSK applies. It's no different than if the kick goes out of bounds. [/B][/QUOTE]

First of all, this thread is facinating and is generating some great discussion. Cmathews and others have done a great job supporting their positon with rule references.

Here is the problem I am having. If this is enforced as a PSK foul, at what spot on the field are we going to award the ball to R before penalty administration if the IW takes place while the ball is in flight? When the ball becomes dead inbounds with no player in posession (rolls to a stop - no IW) or goes out of bounds, we have a spot where the kick ended that is easily identified. When the kick in flight becomes dead due to an IW and you asked 10 people (including the officials) which yard line to ball was over when the IW took place, you would get 10 different answers.

I agree that the NF should, and probably will, make a ruling on a play such as this. My opinion is that the down will be replayed from the previuos spot or R will be penalized from the previous spot when the NF finally make a ruling on this play.

Great discussion and it all makes sense
 

We ran the PSK experimental rule in KY last year. This was a case play in our pre-season handout for 2002. Our play said PSK does not apply. If accepted, the penalty is enforced as a loose ball play (from the previous spot).

This is the most common IW I've seen and I cover it in every pre-game. Rich Brooks gave an SEC BJ an ear full at Alabama last month. Since the ball was muffed, we've now deprived the kicking team of the chance to recover the loose ball.

I disagree with BOB M.
 

You really do have a problem with <b>"Team Possession" changing once the kicked ball crosses the ENZ</b> don't you Bob?
Perhaps then you could explain to us all what the rules committee meant when the wrote <b>Football Fundamentals I.3 (Page 66)</b> which states:<i> A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession <b>unless post scrimmage kick applies.</i> </b>
That seems pretty clear to me Bob, but I would like your opinion!

I can't wait to read what Bob has to say about this!
I'll say this, I don't think they knew what they were doing when that fundamental was changed. It makes no sense unless they want to admit this is an(other) exception.

More info
 

Of course it is an exception, Theisey, the entire PSK ruling is an exception to the Team Possession Rule 2-32-2.

1) R has "technically" recieved the football with "Clean Hands" when the kicked ball crosses the expanded neutral zone. But, as we all know they are allowed to keep the football even though they foul without "physically" possessing the football. We call this PSK!
2) Rule 2-32-2 Says....<b>A live ball is always in "Team possession"</b>
3) Therefore, one would summise that team possession changes from K to R when the kicked ball crosses the expanded neutral zone free of an R foul.
4) Additionally NFHS SITUATION 13 (Revised) has finally been corrected to eliminate an (assumed) automatic double foul when K fouls at any time and R comits any PSK foul, since R "technically" recieved the ball with "Clean Hands". If then, R "technically" recieved the ball with "Clean Hands" then they must also be "technically" in "Team Possession!" Otherwise we wouldn't allow them to keep the ball!
5) Further, I assume the NFHS will either modify the wording in 2-32-2 or add a new rule (2-32-3?) that will specifically address this issue. Most likely it will be worded similar to Football Fundamentals I. 3.

Lets say for for discussion purposes that NF makes a few more alterations to PSK rules next season.

Is it your thinking that if an IW were to occur while a ball is loose during a scrimmage kick in which a PSK type foul would have been administered had the play ended normally, that the IW options will be given to team-R?

Is this what NF really wants to happen?

NCAA does not handle it that way. The down is automatically replayed.

Let's not forget here that the choice to replay the down still belongs to K..We aren't really taking anything away from them...so I don't see a big reason to change it...Think of it this way, if they had just gotten off a boomer of a punt that ended up improving their field position by 60 yrds or more, should they be forced to replay the down, with the likely hood of their improving their position being very slim???

### What choice.. 4-2-3-a says the down is replayed. K does not get a choice. PSK changes did not alter this rule.

That's the way I read it at first, but the first part of 4-2-3 says "During a down, or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, ..."

That seems to imply that if the penalty is accepted, do enforce the penalty as you normally would, and replay only if enforcement of the penalty requires it... Therein lies the problem... The normal penalty enforcement spot doesn't exist...

Does anyone else finally see the light after they hit the submit button?
 

Okay, I've finally rationalized this in my head... Tell me why I'm wrong...

The PSK spot is where the kick ends...
The kick ends when (and where) the ball becomes dead...
The ball becomes dead when the IW is sounded...
Therefore, the PSK spot is wherever the ball was when the whistle blew...

So the choices are:
1) K declines the penalty, and the down is replayed...
2) K accepts the penalty, and R puts the ball in play 5 yards behind the IW spot...

Whatcha think..?

This is easy in NCAA - replay the down.

Not knowing all the NF rules, I can't answer for sure, but it seems to me this is an easier conundrum if you separate the items.

First - forget the penalty. Where would you spot it with your IW if there was no penalty.

Second - Considering that spot the dead ball spot (as if there was no IW), what are the options regarding the penalty.

Third, with the spotting of the ball and the penalty settled - now what are the options (and by whom - K, I think, but not sure in NF) regarding the IW.

So in NCAA, does the penalty get enforced..? (Potentially giving K a first down..?)

My Interpretation
 

First of all this is the play as I understand it:
4th and 4 for K on the K-25.
K1 punts and while the ball is in flight R1 gives an invalid fair catch signal on the R25. Upon seeing the Invalid Fair catch signal the Back Judge throws his flag and blows his whistle.
1) Assuming the ball crossed the ENZ prior to the Invalid signal and prior to the IW (which is highly likely), the PSK window is open.
2) The kick ended when the IW was blown!
3) The spot where the kick ended is (most likely) in advance of where the signal was given. Note: Logically speaking the ball was most likely blown dead in advance of R1, since R1 was (most likely) looking forward at the ball when he signalled.
4) Therefore the penalty (if accepted by K) is enforced from the spot of the foul (the R25) since the spot of the foul is (most likely) behind the end of the kick.
If the spot the ball was blown dead by the IW is determined to be <b>behind the spot where the signal is given, enforce the foul from the end of the kick.</b>
If the penalty is declined by K the down will be replayed.
<b>Under no circumstances is K awarded a first down on this play. </b>

Remember if you have the opportunity to make a play PSK, then by all means, <b> MAKE IT PSK!</B>

Re: I disagree with BOB M.
 

REPLY: That does seem pretty clear, but then again so does the NOTE included in Table 6-4 right at the top of page 45 which <i>clearly</i> states that this kick is still in possession of Team K. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out next year, that NOTE will still be there and the change to Fundamental I.3 will be rescinded. Only time will tell.

RE: I continue to disagree with Bob M.
 

REPLY: That does seem pretty clear, but then again so does the NOTE included in Table 6-4 right at the top of page 45 which <i>clearly</i> states that this kick is still in possession of Team K. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out next year, that NOTE will still be there and the change to Fundamental I.3 will be rescinded. Only time will tell. [/B][/QUOTE]

There are several inconsistancies still remaining in the NFHS Rule Book. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out:
1) Table 6-4 "NOTE:" will be rewritten as follows:<i> K is in Team possession during a kick <b>unless post scrimmage kick applies.</b> A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead by rule. R gains possession of the ball when a player of R catches or recovers the live ball<b> unless post scrimmage kick applies.</b></i>
The Rules committee does need to rewrite this "Note:" to make it consistant with the Change to Fundamental I.3., <b>AND</b> consistant with the "Clean Hands" statement regarding PSK located at the top of page 73 in your 2003 rule book.
2) I believe <b> unless post scrimmage kick applies</b> will be added to the end of Rule 10-2-1b.
3) I believe <b> unless post scrimmage kick applies</b> will be inserted into the verbage of Rule 10-2-2.
4) I believe <b> unless post scrimmage kick applies</b> will be inserted into the verbage of Rule 2-32-2.

But, as you say Bob, only time will tell...