Can anyone offer interpretations as to touchdown or no touchdown when a player dives for the goal line pylon and the ball hits the pylon (inside, straight-on, outside)? Is it a touchdown? Is the ball spotted just outside the goal line? I can't seem to find any references in the Federation rule or case books.
Thanks!

If a ball touches the pylon when held by a player that is touching inbounds, it is a TD.

The ball has crossed the goal line extended while in possession of a player in bounds. Touchdown.

Why wouldn't he be called out of bounds, the pylon is OOB, he touches the pylon so isn't he OOB?

Snake~eyes is correct. By rule: When properly placed, the goal line pylon is out of bounds at the intersection of the sideline and the goal line extended. See rule 1 section 2 article 4.

See the simplified and Illustrated. It has a great example of this.

Yes, he is out of bounds but out of bounds beyond the goal line extended which is a touchdown (if he is on his feet).

ABoselli is Correct.

The goal line pylon (1-2-4) by definition is out of bounds. If the RUNNER is touching the ground in bounds, then he possesses a live ball in his opponent's endzone which is by definition, a touchdown (8-2-1 & 1a). The player must be considered inbounds at the time the ball breaks the plane of the goal line or goal line extended. If the player is in bounds, then it is a TD with all three scenarios of the ball hitting the pylon.

OTHERWISE, if the runner is airborne, (as you said "dives")he must hit the inside of the pylon. That implies that the ball crossed the goal line in bounds before it went out of bounds in possession of a RUNNER. If the runner is airborne, then hitting the pylon is out of bounds and the ball is placed according to (2-40-4c) the inbounds spot. Which is probably a few inches before the pylon. The forward point of the ball hitting the pylon means that the ball had to be OOB to hit the pylon. Where the ball went out is up to the calling official. It is where it crosses the sideline.

See also, Case Book p. 18 2.25.3 The illustration is much better than mine.

My association never gave us one of these books, I guess I should look into buying one, eh?
Thanx

-snake

Here's the NFHS definitive word on the subject...
 

REPLY: From the 2003 National Federation Case Book (Situation 1.2.4 pp. 5-6)
<b><u>PLAY</u></b>: Ball carrier A10 dives into the pylon at the intersection of the goal line and sideline. <b><u>RULING</u></b>: Touchdown. Assuming the pylon was placed properly, the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to touching the pylon.

Re: Here's the NFHS definitive word on the subject...
 

For the most part I agree. Because it is in the book, I would say again that the ball hitting the field side of the properly placed pylon is indeed a TD. However, reading on in the ruling "...the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to the touching of the pylon." That infers that the ball hit the pylon from the field of play side. BUT, WHERE IS THE OOB SPOT FOR THE BALL WHEN AN AIRBORNE PLAYER GOES OOB? SAME WITH THE PYLON.

Re: Re: Here's the NFHS definitive word on the subject...
 

The OOB spot is where the ball crossed the plane of the sideline when an airborne player lands OOB.

Re: Here's the NFHS definitive word on the subject...
 

Since the plane of the goal line extends both vertically and horizontally to infininty, another way to look at this is that if the pylon is properly placed, it is impossible to touch the pylon with the ball without breaking the plane of the EZ no matter which surface of the pylon is touched by the ball.

I can see a play where the runner dives, breaks the sideline plane and then touches the pylon on the side facing the other goal line. OOB at the spot where the ball first broke the sideline plane.

Touching the inside of the pylon (facing the opposite sideline) could only happen if the goal line plane was broken first. Touchdown.

This is why inspection of the field prior to the game is necessary to make sure the pylons are in the proper position. And, if they get jostled during play, make sure that they are repositioned properly.

I think if you wanted to split eye lashes on this you could say that if the ball hits the "outside" or the "front" of the pylon, then the ball has broken the sideline plane before it broke the GL plane, and it would only be a TD if the ball hits the "inside" of the pylon. In reality, if that player dives and the ball hits the pylon, I've got a TD no matter which side of the pylon it hits. Furthermore, Casebook play 1.2.4 does not specify which side of the pylon is contacted by the ball.

I like the question because I am usually the wing man. That is why I try to play out all of the scenarios. After searching through the rule and case book, I tried to understand why the ball hitting the pylon is a TD.
4-2-2b re: live ball goes OOB becomes dead.
4-3-2 "...if the OOB spot is behind the goal line, it is a safety, field goal, or touchback. If the ball touches a pylon, it is OOB behind the goal line."
Does that mean we have a TB, FG, or safety? LOL. No.
I have the 2002 Simplified and Illustrated (may be outdated) 8-2-1 "It is a TD whenever the ball, in possession of a runner, breaks the vertical plane of the opponent's goal line, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THE RUNNER IS IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND. The position of the runner's body is of no consequence as long as the ball in his possession breaks the vertical plane of the goal line."
Then 8-2-1 and 8-2-1a showed that it is not outdated. "possession of live ball in opponent's EZ is always a TD", and "it is a TD when a runner advances from the field of play so that the ball penetrates the vertical plane of the opponent's goal line."

I read this forum because sometimes what I think is logical is not. This is a game of inches, and when it comes to making the right call, I am responsible. These hair splitting points are very important for confidence on the field when the coaches and players are losing it. THANK YOU for the feedback. It made me research and re-search.

It is a TD.

Does this help explain why it is a TD...in order for the ball to be OOB it must contact something that is OOB or the player in possesion must contact something OOB. The ball is dead when it breaks the plane of the Goal Line which as we have seen above extends outside the OOB and Vertically. When the ball touces the pylon it breaks the goal line, so no which came first the chicken (the goal line) or the egg the fact that the pylon is also OOB...I say the Chicken, because really the pylon is there as a reference tool, and if it wasn't there the ball wouldn't touch OOB (the ground) until it had clearly passed over the goal line extended...my 2 cents worth :)

Thus, to simplify, would this be a correct statment?

It is a touchdown when.

The ball breaks the plane of the goal line (including the goal line extended and the pylon) before the player in possession touches out of bounds. It is irrelevent whether or not the runner is in contact in bounds when the plane is broken

EXACTLY!!!!!

I stand corrected.
 

After further review (and study) , I stand corrected. Here is the citation that I believe makes it a TOUCHDOWN when the pylon (any side) is touched with the ball if the player has not touched out of bounds yet:

NF 2-25-3 (lines)

"When related to a live ball in a runner's possession (touching inbounds) while the ball is over the out-of-bounds area, the goal line includes the extension beyond the sidelines."

The pylon is located in the endzone (extended) according to this definition, thus, the plane of the goal line must have been penetrated if the pylon is touched with the ball.

8-2-1-a "It is a touchdown when a runner advances from the field of play so that the ball penetrates the vertical plane of the opponent's goal line."

I need a good relevant citation from the rule book before I agree to anything and I found it.

NO! If the runner dives at the 2, the ball crosses the sideline at the one, then lands beyond the goal line extended out of bounds, then it is NOT a touchdown... The runner only gets the benefit of the goal line extended when they are touching the ground inbounds, or the ball hits/goes over the pylon...

How about when a player is running out of the endzone, trips falls what ever and hits the pylon. That would be a safety. Right?

Piggskin:

Your position is incompatible with that of Seanireland. Can we come to a consensus on this. Now that we've talked about it and it is unclear in my mind, it is guaranteed to happen on my wing tomorrow night. What is your basis for requiring the runner to be in contact inbounds?

parepat -

NF 2-25-3 (lines)

"When related to a live ball in a runner's possession (touching inbounds) while the ball is over the out-of-bounds area, the goal line includes the extension beyond the sidelines."

Diving and leaving contact with the ground inbounds would not be compatible with the above citation. Thus, you would have to mark the ball OOB where the ball broke the sideline plane. The parantheses above indicates that the runner must be touching inbounds.

1) ball hits pylon anywhere while runner is in bounds or diving is a TD. 1.2.4

2) runner crosses goal line in bounds with ball over goal line extended is a TD. 2.25.3a

3) runner possesses ball so that the ball breaks the plane of the goal line, but he is not touching the ground (defender holds him up in the air) is a TD. 8-2-1

4) runner touches in bounds somehow, but ball is over the goal line extended is a TD. 2-25-3.

5) runner dives and lands past the goal line OOB and doesn't touch pylon. Ball is spotted where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. Not a TD. 2-28-2; 2.25.3b

Now do I have it right? I am mostly the wing official, and I must get it right. Am I on the right page now? Do I now have a clue?
THANKS for all the clarifications.

1-2-4 says nothing about a touchdown, diving or otherwise.

2-25-3 (there is no a or b) states in parentheses that the runner must be "touching inbounds". The dive to the pylon is not a TD if the runner's feet have left the inbounds area.

REPLY: To get the benefit of the goal line extended, the runner must touch the ground inbounds beyond the goal line plane. It provides for the situation where the runner crosses the goal line just inside the pylon but is carrying the ball out beyond the sideline. This is a TD. If the runner does <u>not</u> touch the ground inbounds beyond the goal line plane, then the ball itself must cross the goal line plane <b>between the sidelines.</b> The extension of the goal line means nothing in such a case.

It sounds like you've got it... (I'll have to take your word for it on number three, since I don't know the exact scenario...)

Bob, why do you say that the runner must be touching inbounds beyond the goal line..? The way I read it, he just has to be touching inbounds...

Scenario:
Runner A1 is stumbling near the sideline after catching a pass... His feet are just inbounds at the one yard line, and he falls out of bounds at a 45 degree angle to the sideline, and lands so that the ball passes the goal line extended, albeit one yard outside of the pylon...

As goofy as this one sounds, I would have to rule this a touchdown... If you disagree, can you tell me why..?

Thanks...

Forksref: Sorry, I used Case Book 1.2.4 and 2.25.3 a&b for citations. Perhaps, I used the wrong punctuation.

PiggSkin For example the runner jumps and lands on top of a pile. Runner is not on ground, but ball is past the goal line. TD right?

Bob M. Thanks.