Hi all,

I was working as the U in a 10th grade game last night and I had the following scenario occur during a free kick. Neither myself, the HL, or the Ref was able to quote a rule that made this play illegal, but we all had doubts as to its legality.

K1 sets the ball up on the tee and receives the ready signal from the referee. As the K1 approaches the ball he suddenly stops, picks up the ball and readjusts it for an on-side kick while his teammates all shift. After this K1 then performs an on-side kick.

I guess my question is, is it legal for a member of K to touch the ball after the referee has given the ready signal?

Thanks and I look forward to your comments and hopefully a rule listing.

Humm...this is going to take some imaginative officiating here. I really want to flag this but am having a hard time coming up with a rule to back up my flag. I was going to say we had a Free-kick infraction at the least 6-1-2. But if A1 puts the ball in the same spot then I believe he may be OK. Then I was thinking NZ infraction 6-1-3, but that doesn't fly if A1 is the player who kicks the ball. So unless someone can come up with something concrete to flag this, It just might be legal.

Maybe the 25 second clock suddenly expired, so hit'm with a delay?
Otherwise, I'm with James. I can't see what was done wrong unless he moved the ball to another spot.

We have a team in my area who initially lays the ball on the ground next to the tee. They then huddle up and wait for the ready-for-play. Then they all run together toward the ball like it would be an onside kick. Normally they stop about a yard behind the neutral zone and then spread out into a normal formation. The kicker puts the ball on the tee and then kicks off. They never even get close to running out of time on the 25 second clock. Everything is legal. When they do onside it then their whole team is tightly grouped and normally the receivers don't adjust to this formation.

A couple of years ago, the NFHS site had this very play listed. The ruling was that it was legal because the ball was never moved from the designated spot.

I believe this play is legal.

Agreed. As long as the ball isn't moved from the original spot, legal play.

I had this one last weekend too... I guess technically, you could say that moving the ball from next to the tee to on top of the tee is moving the ball... (If not, how far does the ball have to be moved for it to be a violation..?) I didn't call it, but a well-versed coach could make a case for a flag...

Thanks!
 

Thank you for your collective thoughts. As I said, this seems like it should be illegal, but we couldn't come up with a rule that specifically prevents it so none of us threw the flag. I guess it turns out that we did the right thing after all.

Heck, the coach even told me he was going to do this and asked me about its legality immediately before the kick. I told him that it seemed illegal but I couldn't quote a rule so I wasn't going to throw the flag.

Thank you all for your help!

Got a ruling from the state yesterday that if the ball is laying on the ground when the ball is blown RFP it can't then be put on a tee. Still don't see the advantage in it but I'll rule the way they want me to rule.

What if the ball was on the tee and not on the ground? In this case it was on the tee, they just changed its position and the orientation of the tee.

I agree that it looks funny and might be a violation somewhere, but really, what would be the advantage? Is there any?

Does it matter that there's an advantage? There's an advantage if you make the defense think your are throwing a pass and you instead run. There's an advantage if you line up for a punt and manage to run for the 1st instead. Football is about advantage. I don't understand the seeming desire to flag or stop such a play (or Warren's play either). If you kick the ball to a spot that the receivers are not expecting, kudos to you! No rules were broken, and there was no attempt to deceive outside the normal parameters of the game (like the "Where's the tee" or "Wrong Ball" or fake substitution plays).

The receiving team knows that at any time the kicking team might kick it short and try to recover it. There's no deception there - it's known.

I agree with you, it's not advantage, it has to be unfair advantage. And I see NO unfair advantage here.
That's my two cents...

What's the advantage to having a lineman line up facing a sideline rather than the opponent's goal line..? I don't know, but that doesn't make it legal...

For this case, here's a good way to look at the reasoning: For a scrimmage down, the official spots the ball, and the ball must be snapped from that place... For a free kick ball, the official doesn't spot the ball, since each kicker likes to tee up their ball in their own special way... But the official is there to make sure the ball is in the right place... Consider that the equivalent of spotting the ball... Once done, it must be put in play from that spot...

Plus, it's always possible that in moving the ball left or right, they move it up or back a few inches...

I agree with you so I will be devil's advocate here. What about after a safety and the team punts for the free-kick. Is that ball put into play at the exact spot designated when the ready-for-play was blown?

I really don't see a problem moving the ball a couple of inches but Kansas doesn't want things that way so I won't let them move it.

It's an analogy, so there will be some holes in it... However, the book does say that the punt must be kicked from within one step behind K's free kick line... So that seems to acknowledge a little bit of imprecision as to where exactly the ball will be when it is kicked...

I realize this isn't very precise language, but it's enough to allow me to rationalize the analogy... ;)

I guess the next question is how far to the left or right do you allow the punter of the free kick to stray from the "designated spot"..? (Not that anyone's really going to be in good position to rule on that...)

free kick moving the ball
 

rule 6-2 NF STATES once the ball is marker ready for play it is illegal procedure to move the ball after it is in its designated position....

Re: free kick moving the ball
 

Rule 6-2 is Scrimmage Kicks. Which article are you referring to?

Re: Re: free kick moving the ball
 

I think he meant 6-1-2.

Maybe this will put your play to rest.
This is from NF's rules interpretation for 2001. Nothing has changed since then to rule any differenly. The situation is #15.

SITUATION 15: After the ready signal on a free kick, K is in a huddle and all 11 players race toward the ball, which is lying on the ground or on a tee. Ten K players then break off toward the sidelines without crossing their freekick line while kicker K1 picks the ball up off the ground and/or adjusts it to an upright position on the tee. RULING: This is not a dead-ball, free-kick infraction. The designated spot has not changed. The kicker/holder may adjust the ball as needed. However, the ball must be kicked within the allotted 25 seconds following the ready-for-play signal.

Is this something you have printed out or do you have a web site location of it? This is the exact play that a team in my area runs. Another coach has complained and got the state to rule in his favor. I would like to forward this situation to the state and get their final ruling on this play.

It was on the NF site in 2001. All I have is hard copy. If you want I can scan and send it to you.
Alternatively, you could contact the NF. I would hope this stuff would be stashed away in some archive folder.

Thanks. I may try to see if my state guy can get that from NF. He is one of the guys in the front of the rules book with a picture. He should know the right person to talk to.