High school game, K punts the ball, (legal scrimmage kick) a) R muffs the kick, b)R returns punt, or c) R returns punt and there is a penalty during the return by R, in all cases R fumbles and K revcovers. You are awarding a new series to K, do you start the clock on the snap?? I looks like it under 3-4-3, but I am having a small debate over it with another official. I wish there was case play for this.

Thanks for all you help and input!

"New series awarded to either team after a legal kick..." start on the snap.

On a new series following a legal kick, start on the snap (3-4-3c). This applies to all your situation.

Rich

Start the clock on the snap. Rule 3-4-3c: either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

Here is another one. B intercepts A's pass, during the return, B fumbles, A recovers and is downed inbounds. Does the clock start on the ready or the snap?

on the snap, because technically B earned a new series, then a got it back...that is my justification anyway, after a change of possesion, always start on the snap...or at least that is MHO

That logic could get you in trouble... If the ball were intercepted, then turned back over to A, the clock should technically start on the RFP...

The clock starts on the snap when B is awarded a new series, but in this case, B is never awarded a series because they fumbled it away...

I don't disagree with what you are saying piggskin, as a matter of fact your position is pretty defensible..but consider this..Why does the clock start on the snap when A recovers a punt that was touched first by B...Here is my logic to it, there has been a change of possesion, when A kicked it they gave up possesion then got it back via a muff or fumble that they recovered....if you agree with that logic then the fumbled interception is not that much different?? any thoughts...anyone??

K does not really give up possession in such a play. They may intend to, but in reality they are in possession all along. While it has probably never happened in modern football, A could legally kick the ball with the intent of not giving up possession. Obviously it's risky and is probably not going to happen, but K1 could intentionally punt the ball sideways to "wideout" K2 who catches the ball behind the NZ and advances for a FD. Here K never intended to give up possession, the kick never crossed the NZ, R never touched it, yet the clock will start on the snap since a team has been awarded a new series following a legal kick (I know that's totally "out there," but if this were a pass instead of a kick, the clock would start on the ready if the play ended in bounds, even though the intent of both is the same).

PSU, yep totally out there but in this discussion, very relevant....on the interception, fumble, recovery with A ending up with the ball, when do you start the clock, RFP or snap...I am beginning to have doubts LOL..I was always taught, change of possesion, start on the snap, and we definitely have a COP...

New Two Minute Drill
 

PSU: I think you've come up with a new way of running the two minute drill... Don't say it too loud or coach will try to implement it... ;)

cmathews: I think it's important to differentiate between the layman's description and the rulebook's description... That is:
"Clock stops when there is a turnover" (Layman's words)
vs.
"Clock stops when B is awarded a new series" (Rulebook's words, somewhat paraphrased)

Punts are different because the book (3-4-3c) explicitly handles legal kicks differently...

Re: New Two Minute Drill
 

And B is awarded a new series if they are in possession at the end of the down (i.e. if they get the ball during the down and then turn it over again, they are never really awarded a new series)...Rule 5-1-3b.

Ususally On a change of posession play, B or K is in posession when the down ends. However on this play, there were two changes of posession, B's interception and A's recovery of the fumble, but there was not a legal kick nor was B awarded a new series, so by rule the clock starts on the ready. It is not a change of posession that causes the clock to start on the snap - it is because there was a legal kick or B in posession when the down ends.

This play occured in a game that I was R in a few years ago. 3 of my crew thought I was wrong to start the clock on the ready and one thought I was correct but was not sure. We had a Supervisor (Scout) at the game and he thought I was correct.

I agree on this, start the clock on the ready after the interception followed by the fumble. It seems like a play that is likely to happen ever once in awhile, I can't NFHS hasn't made a note in the rule on this or a the very least a casebook play.

It happened in my game last night. We talked about the play briefly during pre-game conference. R started clok on ready.

But what would you do if when A got the ball back was tackled OOB, ran OOB, or recovered the fumble in their EZ for a touchback? When does the clock start for these?
I would say that they all start on the snap as the action that ended the previous play also stopped the clock.

By rule, on the snap for all these situations.

I was a little surprised to not see this brought up earlier in this thread. Usually little twists like this are brought up early in these discussions. I just wanted to make the point that just because A gets the ball back that the clock may start on either the ready or the snap.

My thought is that if you're not sure if the clock should start on the ready or the snap, let it start on the snap. It's always better to get it right but sometimes we just forget.

Sometimes a good clock operator will help you out. A couple of weeks ago my game had an incompletion and an injury. Before the next snap we had a dead-ball foul. On the next ready I had a brain-cramp and wound it but instantly realized I just screwed up. I waved the clock stopped immediatly and looked at the clock. The clock had never started. He was paying attention to what he was supposed to be doing instead of what I told him.

Platooning and Special Teams ...

That is the reason for the change in the timing rule, which occurred in 1996. Prior to that season, the clock started on the ready for play whenever a new series was awarded for either team (because an officials time-out was taken to set the chains, and the clock started on the ready following an officials time-out, unless the clock was stopped for another reason listed in 3-4-2b.) The rules committee cited inconsistency by referees in marking the ball ready for play as the reason for changing the rule. They felt that referees were delaying the ready for play following a change of possession or following a kick, "... thus giving the offensive team an advantage by allowing them more time to get onto the playing field." So they added "other than when Team B is awarded a new series or when either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." to 3-4-2a. This theoretically created consistency in timing, allowing the defense to get their offense on the field, or to allow the kicking team to get their regular offense back on the field if they somehow retained or regained possession following a legal kick.

There was no need to change the timing when the offense was already on the field, as would be the case following an interception and subsequent fumble recovery by Team A.

There was a questionaire in 1994 which indicated more than 50% of the respondents in favor of the concept.

We squawked a lot about the length of games following the change. There were some states that experimented with the change reportedly finding "the increase in the length of game time to be minimal." We found that games were often up to twenty minutes longer, depending on the number of possession changes. We are used to it by now.