Pylon
 

1. If the properly placed pylon is "out of bounds" (1-4) why do we consider a ball in player possession (A runner going towards B' goal line) that touches the pylon a TD?

2. Kick off heading towards EZ, hits one of the front pylons: Touch back or Kick out of bounds?

Because it's out of bounds behind the goal line. In order to touch the pylon, the ball must have broken the GL plane first.

That is my thought as well and yet two things.
1. I can't find "behind the goal line" as a part of the definition of the properly placed pylon.
2. The outside edge of the pylon is technically out of bounds if properly placed.

I am not suggesting or arguing that either of these should not be a TD or TB (as appropriate) yet the NFHS language should be more specific in clarifying this.

Look at it this way: If you don't call it a TD, where you gonna spot the ball?

I don't see the problem. The entirety of the pylon is behind the goal line and out of bounds. If that's not a problem for the white lines, why's it a problem for the orange post? "[P]laced at the inside corner of each of the intersections of the sidelines with the goal lines and the end lines...." How else could you see it?

When flags were used, that could sometimes be a problem.

Good point! A runner is running near midfield and near the sideline. He reaches the ball out and a part of his body other than a hand or foot hits the ground simultaneously with the ball hitting the ground (in his possession) on the sideline that intersects the 45 yard line. Where are you going to spot the ball? Why wouldn't this spot also apply if the sideline the ball hit intersected the goal line.

This is one where I maintain the official ruling is wrong. I say that if it hits the side facing the opposite sideline, then it crossed the GL before going OOB and is a touchback. If it hits the side facing the opposite end line, then it went OOB before crossing the goal line and should be marked at the R1.

When the pylon is properly set, so that it's front edge is on the goal line, why would a kick, that touches that front edge, not have broken the plane of the goal line, which satisfies the requirement of being a touchback? "Crossing the line" is not necessary.

Forget about it hitting the pylon for a moment. You are standing at the pylon for a kickoff. From here you clearly see the ball crosses the plane of the sideline before reaching the goal line. It then lands two yards behind the goal line and five yards OOB. Is this a touchback?

Of course not.

But you're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is: Can the ball touch the pylon without breaking the GL plane (extended)? The answer is "no".

The reason for having pylons is to give the players and officials an easy vertical reference point for the location of the intersection of the goal line and sideline. Defining the pylon as being OOB behind the GL makes it simple to officiate.

But my entire point is that in order to hit the face of the pylon that is facing the opposite end line, the ball must have cross the sideline first before it hit the pylon.

If the kick that lands 5 yards OOB is not a touchback because it crosses the sideline before it crosses the goal line, why is it a touchback just because it hits the pylon?

The front face of the pylon is the front edge of the goal line. Any ball that hits the pylon breaks the front edge of the goal line. All the pylon does is give us a tool to judge if the ball crosses the goal line or doesn't.

Maybe Altor's example needs to be even more starkly stated:

(a) A1's punt from close to the sideline crosses the sideline immediately, but an in-field wind keeps the ball close as it travels in the air, and the 1st thing it hits is the front face of the goal line pylon 40 yards downfield. What's your spot? I'd say where it crossed the sideline.

Now say the pylon is missing -- happens a lot with the weighted ones we use that blow over or away easily -- and the ball takes the same path as in a, but hits the ground

(b) a foot outside the sideline in goal, or
(c) a foot inside the sideline in the end zone.

I'd say in b that the spot would be the same as in a, but c would result in a touchback. In c the status of the ball was never "out of bounds".

Its not OOB until it hits something OOB. When do you stop the clock on a pass that is thrown OOB? When it crosses the line or when it hits something OOB?

I would say all 3 would be touchbacks

You might want to reread the rule on punts out of bounds in particular.

Correct as to when the ball is out of bounds. But how about as to the out-of-bounds spot as per 4-3-1?

I hope you're not saying the live ball's touching the plane of the goal line supersedes the spotting of the ball via the out-of-bounds spot, because then in Altor's example of the ball's landing 5 yds. OOB 2 yds. beyond the goal line, that'd be a touchback too, provided the plane of the goal line extends indefinitely past the sideline. I'm sure the rules makers didn't intend it to be a touchback in that case, so why would it automatically be a touchback if it touched an object just inches out of bounds?

I think the practical answer in the case of the loose ball's hitting the pylon is that the pylon is supposed to represent a dimensionless point at the intersection of the goal & side lines, even though in reality it occupies space. So touching any part of it is deemed to be touching that point.

That's true. My mistake.

Lets look at it in "reverse" for a second and see what that does.

What if the pylon definition said a pylon properly placed is completely "in" bounds?
This would seem to make more sense if we then say, If the ball touches the pylon while in player possession going in its a TD, Or, If the pylon is hit by kick we have a TB since all kicks not going out of bounds but breaking the plane of the goal line, in bounds (where the pylon by our new definition now is) are Touch backs.

This would eliminate us confusing how the ball can touch something that is completely "out" of bounds and yet the ball remains "in" bounds (so to speak) in the EZ.

The pylon is fine where it is.

Please understand: I'm not suggesting anybody ignore the approved/official ruling. I just think that ruling is wrong. It flies in the face of physics and common sense in my mind. We all have rules and rulings that we disagree with.

Thanks for the Pylon discussion. A wierd little object for sure :-)

Similar to the NFL and NFHS Rule codes being different, so are the rules for Football and Physics. It all depends on which game you're playing.

Actually the rule reads "When properly placed, the goal line pylon is out of bounds at the intersection of the sideline and goal line extended". So if one considers the goal line extension, the pylon would be completely in the end zone. So on scrimmage kicks and free kicks where the ball hits the pylon before going OOB it actually breaks the plane of the goal line. Result is a touchback.