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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 10:58am
CT1 CT1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
The opening kickoff of Vandy/SC would also be a good play for discussion.
"No cheap scores, no cheap turnovers."
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
"No cheap scores, no cheap turnovers."
Given what it looks like SC was trying to pull here the cheapness would be well earned, unfortunately the ball never left the endzone.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 06:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
If you have it available, I would love to see the entire play with review of the Northwestern drive at 3:01 in the 4th period. It's the wild fumble into the end zone, WM recovery followed by an illegal bat (or forward pass). It ended up being called a touchback. Thanks
Video of play (but not final ruling) here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd_ytv3tnAc

Here's what I see:
(1) Fumble clearly happens before ball breaks plane; fumble is the force that puts the ball into EZ.
(2) Defender possesses ball inbounds in the EZ, leaps, and tosses it back into field of play. This appears to be an illegal forward pass, though it is difficult to be certain of the angle.
(3) Ball lands inbounds in the EZ and is recovered by offense before they touch the pylon.

Seems pretty straightforward - decline penalty, touchdown. The question is whether the defender landed OOB before releasing the ball - the main video does not really have a good angle on this, though the inset freeze frame looks like he *does* release the ball first.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 07:51pm
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Easier to embed the play.



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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 10:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
(2) Defender possesses ball inbounds in the EZ, leaps, and tosses it back into field of play. This appears to be an illegal forward pass, though it is difficult to be certain of the angle.
(3) Ball lands inbounds in the EZ and is recovered by offense before they touch the pylon.

Seems pretty straightforward - decline penalty, touchdown.
Assuming the parts in bold are true and the "passer" did not step OOB first, I don't believe this is a proper penalty enforcement.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 10:28pm
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If the Team B player stepped OOB before the pass: touchback.

If the team B player did not step OOB before throwing the pass: foul for illegal forward pass. Ball is dead as soon as it hits the ground (incomplete). Foul by Team B occurred in the end zone after Team B gained possession -> Safety.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 05, 2016, 10:45pm
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Well something tells me that this play will be discussed on Tuesday at our meeting for multiple reasons. I will let you know on some level what is discussed.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 06:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
If the Team B player stepped OOB before the pass: touchback.

If the team B player did not step OOB before throwing the pass: foul for illegal forward pass. Ball is dead as soon as it hits the ground (incomplete). Foul by Team B occurred in the end zone after Team B gained possession -> Safety.
But there was a holding foul by A, too. So, wouldn't the penalties offset and the down be replayed?

Also, is it possible the flag could have been for illegal batting rather than IFP?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 08:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
But there was a holding foul by A, too. So, wouldn't the penalties offset and the down be replayed?

Also, is it possible the flag could have been for illegal batting rather than IFP?
I couldn't find a link with the entire play, so I was unaware of the holding foul. Given that... well, clean hands applies, but I don't think B will want to decline the penalty, so yes, offset and replay.

The flag *could* be for batting, but I don't think it should be. I would need to check the NCAA definition of bat to be sure, but I expect that once the ball is possessed by the defender, it's no longer going to be batting but passing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Assuming the parts in bold are true and the "passer" did not step OOB first, I don't believe this is a proper penalty enforcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
If the Team B player stepped OOB before the pass: touchback.

If the team B player did not step OOB before throwing the pass: foul for illegal forward pass. Ball is dead as soon as it hits the ground (incomplete). Foul by Team B occurred in the end zone after Team B gained possession -> Safety.
... and yet, I came up with the enforcement for batting. :P (Probably because that's how it was labeled in the video.) jTheUmp is correct that if this is an illegal forward pass, it's dead when it hits the ground.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 09:23am
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Did the play go to a replay review?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 09:45am
CT1 CT1 is offline
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After watching this play many times, and hearing Dick Honig's explanation, it's my opinion that we had a play with double fouls and should have had a replay.

It bothers me that they came up with "B was OOB before the ball left his hand" when the covering official (H) didn't blow his whistle to signify that the B player was OOB, and indeed continued to officiate the play.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 10:36am
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For what it's worth, I've seen nothing on this play other than the video Rut posted and the discussion here, so the rest of my post is under the assumption that no further information is available.

And I didn't notice the OH foul when I replied earlier.


I'm assuming that H didn't think that the Team B player stepped OOB before throwing the pass, which is why he continued to officiate.

Let's break it down:
1) Team A holding foul prior to the fumble.
2) Team A fumble at the 1-yard line (end of related run for holding foul).
3) Fumble goes from the field of play into the end zone (Team A impetus)
4) Fumble is recovered by Team B in the end zone, thus starting a new running play.
5) Team B illegal forward pass from end zone, which falls incomplete.
6) Incomplete pass is "recovered" by Team A in the end zone.

Scenario 1:
If replay comes in and says that the Team B player stepped OOB between #4 and #5, then the illegal forward pass never happened because the ball was dead.
Then, Team B can either decline the OH foul and take the result of the play (touchback), or accept the OH penalty enforcement and give the ball back to Team A. Obviously, they'll decline the penalty and take the ball.

Scenario 2:
If replay either doesn't get involved or determines that the Team B player threw the forward pass before stepping OOB:
The "recovery" by Team A in the end zone never happened, because the ball is dead as soon as the pass is incomplete.

Team B got the ball with clean hands, so they have the following options:
a) decline A's OH foul, and accept the penalty for the illegal forward pass, resulting in a safety (see my previous post)
b) offsetting fouls, replay the down.

Considering the score (Team B leading by 1), down/distance (1-Goal @ B-6), and time remaining (3:00ish in 4th), the choice isn't all that obvious for Team B.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 06, 2016, 03:56pm
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Here is another video that does show that this play went to review

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