Interference?

MD Longhorn

I think the heart of the issue has nothing to do with the push and whether it's malicious or not, so we'll probably be more productive ignoring that part.

Cecil - if it's interference, it's dead at the moment of interference ... so it never became fair.

My initial answer was foul ball. TC has me doubting myself now.

CecilOne

MD Longhorn wrote
I think the heart of the issue has nothing to do with the push and whether it's malicious or not, so we'll probably be more productive ignoring that part.

Cecil - if it's interference, it's dead at the moment of interference ... so it never became fair.

Yes to both. 😮

tcannizzo

Upon further review, I am going to modify my answer.
Rule 1 Definitions: Foul Ball
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.

This comes back to what "play" would have been made if F3 got the ball at that point. None. So it is not INT.

7.6.K only allows INT on a foul fly ball.
Contradicted/muddied by 8.2.F.1: When the batter-runner interferes with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.

So, Foul Ball, with an ejected participant.

MD Longhorn

I don't see an equivalent in NFHS or NCAA (unless I'm blind).

MD Longhorn

Oops. NCAA 11.5 - Foul Ball
A legally batted ball that:
11.5.7 Is in foul territory when a base runner in foul territory interferes with a defensive player's attempt to field a batted ball.

OK... just need NFHS now.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich Ives on the Baseball Forum addressed this in a manner that I think would also be applicable to fast pitch softball and baseball under all rule sets (ASA, USSSA, NFHS, NCAA, and OBR).

1) The batted ball is not a fly ball.

2) The ball is neither a Foul Ball or a Fair Ball just prior to the contact between B/R-1 and F3 who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

3) The Ball was touching in Foul Territory when B/R-1 made contact with F3. who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

4) B/R-1 has committed Interference with F3. The Ball becomes Dead immediately. B/R/-1 is out because of committing Interference. All runners return to the bases they occupied at the time of the B/R-1's Interference.

5) B/R-1 can be ejected for Malicious Contact and/or Unsportsmanlike Conduct in some rules sets.

MTD, Sr.

tcannizzo

2) The ball is neither a Foul Ball or a Fair Ball just prior to the contact between B/R-1 and F3 who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

There are only two definitions in the books that I own, a fair ball and a foul ball. What is the third definition? And what book is it in?

4) B/R-1 has committed Interference with F3. The Ball becomes Dead immediately. B/R/-1 is out because of committing Interference. All runners return to the bases they occupied at the time of the B/R-1's Interference.

The definition of "play" includes an attempt to retire an offensive player.
What "play" would occur by touching a ground ball in foul territory?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

tcannizzo wrote
There are only two definitions in the books that I own, a fair ball and a foul ball. What is the third definition? And what book is it in?

The definition of "play" includes an attempt to retire an offensive player.
What "play" would occur by touching a ground ball in foul territory?

Item (2): A ball that is rolling on the ground along the 1B Foul Line in Foul Territory between HP and 1B. At what point do you judge it to be a Fair Ball or a Foul Ball? Since this is the Softball Forum read NFHS Softball R2-S20-A1 and R2-25-A1; NCAA Softball Rules, ASA, and USSSA rules read the same as the NFHS Softball Rules.

Item (4): Would not a defensive player attempting to make a Ball, that is neither Fair nor Foul, a Foul Ball an attempt to play the Ball?

MTD, Sr.

2-20-1 and 2-25-1

MD Longhorn

Softball (at least ASA and NCAA) has addressed this specifically in their definition of foul ball, and there is no out here. Baseball has not and apparently this is an out (Sure on OBR and NFHS, not clear on NCAA yet).

A still moving ball that has not been contacted yet is neither fair nor foul.

youngump

tcannizzo wrote
Upon further review, I am going to modify my answer.
Rule 1 Definitions: Foul Ball
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.

This comes back to what "play" would have been made if F3 got the ball at that point. None. So it is not INT.

7.6.K only allows INT on a foul fly ball.
Contradicted/muddied by 8.2.F.1: When the batter-runner interferes with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.

So, Foul Ball, with an ejected participant.

The only pdf rulebook I have here is 2005. It's definition of rule 1 reads while over foul territory, a RUNNER interferes with. Assuming you're quoting a more current version, this solves some of the problem in that thread. 8-2-F is still a problem. Does 8-7-J still say fair batted ball?
My biggest problem remains that if you don't just call this a foul ball, it's incredibly weird that you do still call it a foul ball when the runner on third does exactly the same thing. And I can't believe anyone is seriously advocating for actually calling it a fair ball on the field.

tcannizzo

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Item (2): A ball that is rolling on the ground along the 1B Foul Line in Foul Territory between HP and 1B. At what point do you judge it to be a Fair Ball or a Foul Ball?

When it is touched or has settled.
Or when an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball while over foul territory.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Since this is the Softball Forum read NFHS Softball R2-S20-A1 and R2-25-A1; NCAA Softball Rules, ASA, and USSSA rules read the same as the NFHS Softball Rules.

Here is the complete ASA 2014 Text:
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched (not caught) on or over foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds or rolls past first or third base on or over foul territory.
C. While over foul territory, touches the person, attached or detached equipment or clothing of a player or an umpire, orany object foreign to the natural ground.
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.
E. First hits the ground over foul territory beyond first or third base.
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter's hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter's box

NHFS has one additional text, but that is not the crux of this issue.

They both define a foul ball the same, which is the way I read the OP.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Item (4): Would not a defensive player attempting to make a Ball, that is neither Fair nor Foul, a Foul Ball an attempt to play the Ball?

There is no such thing as an attempt to play the Ball.

tcannizzo

youngump wrote
Does 8-7-J still say fair batted ball?

ASA 2014
8.7.J, When a runner interferes:
1. With a fielder attempting to field a batted fair ball or a foul fly ball, or
2. With a fielder attempting to throw the ball, or
3. With a thrown ball.

jmkupka

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Rich Ives on the Baseball Forum addressed this...

3) The Ball was touching in Foul Territory when B/R-1 made contact with F3. who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

4) B/R-1 has committed Interference with F3. The Ball becomes Dead immediately. B/R/-1 is out because of committing Interference. All runners return to the bases they occupied at the time of the B/R-1's Interference.

5) B/R-1 can be ejected for Malicious Contact and/or Unsportsmanlike Conduct in some rules sets.

MTD, Sr.

All due respect, how is this different from the case that I posted in my recent thread "Sharing things that I've learned here…", in which I was told that it is an immediate foul ball as soon as the interference happens, thereby no out.

IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

A batted ball has no given status until an event involving the ball as listed in the definitions of Fair or Foul occurs.

8.2.F.1 clearly notes the BR is out if interfering with a defender attempting to field a batted ball.

A batted ball is any pitched ball which contacts the bat and "lands" in either fair or foul territory. Please note that it states where the ball lands, not that is applies a status to the ball in doing so.

Yes, this is a different requirement for INT than that applied to a runner, but it is what it is and I suspect it is maintained as such to address the scenario prevented in the OP

Manny A

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Speaking ASA

A batted ball has no given status until an event involving the ball as listed in the definitions of Fair or Foul occurs.

8.2.F.1 clearly notes the BR is out if interfering with a defender attempting to field a batted ball.

A batted ball is any pitched ball which contacts the bat and "lands" in either fair or foul territory. Please note that it states where the ball lands, not that is applies a status to the ball in doing so.

Yes, this is a different requirement for INT than that applied to a runner, but it is what it is and I suspect it is maintained as such to address the scenario prevented in the OP

So if the OP had said it was R1 at third who pushed F1 out of the way while the ball was in foul territory while R1 was going home, and the ball ended up hitting the third base bag, this would be covered under 8-7-J, and R1 would not be guilty of INT? Why the inconsistency on practically exact plays?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Speaking ASA

A batted ball has no given status until an event involving the ball as listed in the definitions of Fair or Foul occurs.

8.2.F.1 clearly notes the BR is out if interfering with a defender attempting to field a batted ball.

A batted ball is any pitched ball which contacts the bat and "lands" in either fair or foul territory. Please note that it states where the ball lands, not that is applies a status to the ball in doing so.

Yes, this is a different requirement for INT than that applied to a runner, but it is what it is and I suspect it is maintained as such to address the scenario prevented in the OP

Irish:

Thanks. I will put my check in the mail Monday morning, 😉.

MTD, Sr.

IRISHMAFIA

Manny A wrote
So if the OP had said it was R1 at third who pushed F1 out of the way while the ball was in foul territory while R1 was going home, and the ball ended up hitting the third base bag, this would be covered under 8-7-J, and R1 would not be guilty of INT? Why the inconsistency on practically exact plays?

If I knew that, I would probably have stated it long ago. I've had many sensible proposed changes (all which have been discussed on this or a preceding board) that have been rejected.

It took me two years to get the D3K rule corrected. The actions and arguments you see at some of these committee meetings do not make sense and it is unbelievable how some things are so engrained in peoples' minds that they cannot see the obvious even if you read it to them from the rule book.

Manny A

MD Longhorn wrote
Oops. NCAA 11.5 - Foul Ball
A legally batted ball that:
11.5.7 Is in foul territory when a base runner in foul territory interferes with a defensive player's attempt to field a batted ball.

OK... just need NFHS now.

It's in there Mike. See 2-25-1e. Practically word-for-word with what's written in NCAA and ASA.