3 Seconds

MD Longhorn

frezer11 wrote
If a kid has his foot just inside the lane line on the weak side, and has no effect on the play...

IMHO, this is a perfect time for the "Get out of the lane, 34." You don't, at the moment he's violating, know that this positioning will not end up being advantageous. Obviously, it's not yet... and I get that you say you'd whack him when it becomes an advantage.

But do you whack him at the moment a shot is released and he's been doing this for 5 seconds? No ... probably not - yet NOW he's developed a rebounding advantage from being allowed to park there.

I'm fine with not whistling 3 seconds on the weak side - but is still should be addressed.

Andy

BatteryPowered wrote
I was taught in this neck of the woods to call it when we get to three. Of course, we were also taught to count...1..................................2.................2 1/3..............................2 2/3...

Seriously, we were told if the player wants to basically take himself/herself out of the offense not to be quick with the violation at first. Now, if the suddenly get an easy bucket or rebound after being cautioned stick them with the violation at the next opportunity. Maybe I have just been lucky but I usually just reminding them to watch the paint during the first quarter works. I guess they know I/we are noticing and trying not to interupt the flow of the game.

This goes with my teaching as well...but like this....

we were also taught to count...1..................................2.................2 1/3......Hey, 42, get out of the lane.......................2 2/3..................3 (whistle if necessary)

frezer11

MD Longhorn wrote
IMHO, this is a perfect time for the "Get out of the lane, 34." You don't, at the moment he's violating, know that this positioning will not end up being advantageous. Obviously, it's not yet... and I get that you say you'd whack him when it becomes an advantage.

But do you whack him at the moment a shot is released and he's been doing this for 5 seconds? No ... probably not - yet NOW he's developed a rebounding advantage from being allowed to park there.

I'm fine with not whistling 3 seconds on the weak side - but is still should be addressed.

I agree completely, and I do give them the "Get out" statement when I see it. And as far as the rebounding position is concerned, you're right, no one likely calls 3 seconds as the shot is going up, and if he does get a rebound, or even impacts how the rebound is made, whehter his team ends up with it or not, then his "Free Pass" so to speak ends, and it is penalized fairly strictly the next time down the court. And just a quick disclaimer, all of this is assuming we are with a foot in on the weak side. In my opinion, if you are on the strong side, even a foot in is an advantage, so a normal 3 second count would be penalized.

Rich

bainsey wrote
"Don't be a good three-second official. Be a GREAT three-second official."

I prefer my quote:

"Don't make three-seconds your best call."

😀

rpirtle

I use the same technique some have mentioned...I talk to the players first. I won't blow 3-seconds unless they've been warned 1st...whether it was immediately before I blew or on a previous trip. It's just my opinion...but it's such a "game interrupter" when a partner blows 3-seconds with no warning (usually away from the ball).

JetMetFan

dee33 wrote
I agree jetman but they didnt build a tent or a fort in the paint and like i said it was really not that much post play going on would you call it or leave it be how would you handle that coach???

That’s cool. Just emphasizing advantage/disadvantage isn’t an issue.

My way of handling it? Well, I’ll address what appears to have happened in your game and go from there. If the HC was “barking…all freaking night” and no one addressed him, frankly the crew brought that headache on itself. I’d have to think at some point early on he made these comments while one of the officials was next to him. Ask him, quietly, “Coach, how may I help you?” When he answers:

*Tell him, by rule, why what he’s asking for isn’t a violation, or…
*Tell him you’ll make sure to keep an eye on things but you haven’t seen one yet

If you address him early in some form that should quiet him down. If he keeps it up at some point someone has to say, “Coach, I hear you but that’s enough.” If he keeps going…well, you know what to do.

stripes

OKREF wrote
Call 3 seconds on his team the very next time you can!

As soon as the coach complains about they meant to watch the other team, calmly explain that you HAD to watch his team more closely as well.

BillyMac

JetMetFan wrote
Advantage/disadvantage only applies to contact.

JetMetFan: I slightly disagree. Please cite something, in writing, that states that advantage/disadvantage does not apply to violations. I will agree that, in almost all occasions, advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls, but I would not agree that advantage/disadvantage only applies to fouls.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32154-poll-applying-advantage-disadvantage-violations.html#post384619 (Ignore the poll. I hate polls.)

In the immortal words of the infamous Jurassic Referee: "There are certain violations that I think that even the FED rulesmakers would probably agree, if you twisted their arms, that some discretion (read: advantage/disadvantage) is needed to make an appropriate call. Examples might be 3-seconds and the 10-second count on a free-throw shooter.

Camron Rust

BillyMac wrote
JetMetFan: I slightly disagree. Please cite something, in writing, that states that advantage/disadvantage does not apply to violations. I will agree that, in almost all occasions, advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls, but I would not agree that advantage/disadvantage only applies to fouls.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32154-poll-applying-advantage-disadvantage-violations.html#post384619 (Ignore the poll. I hate polls.)

In the immortal words of the infamous Jurassic Referee: "There are certain violations that I think that even the FED rulesmakers would probably agree, if you twisted their arms, that some discretion (read: advantage/disadvantage) is needed to make an appropriate call. Examples might be 3-seconds and the 10-second count on a free-throw shooter.

If instead of advantage/disadvantage you apply intent and purpose and you have a way to not call 3 seconds just because a player happens to be in the lane for 3 seconds.

OrStBballRef

dee33 wrote
Just a general question I had a game last night and the coach was barking about 3 seconds all freaking night to whoever was in the lead and there was no adavantage disadvantage going on because the ball was passed around the top of the key majority of the game. He called a timeout barked some more why arent yall calling this then begins the rant of three seconds is 1,2,3 toot should be a whistle. Mind you the other coach was coaching didnt have a care in the world about the calls. How would you guys have handled this situation?

"Coach, every time I hear 3 in the key I restart my count..."
"Coach if you're calling that then I can't..."

Both of these (for me) usually quiets the coach down if he knows what he's doing....

Now with regards to actually 3 in the key if it's there you may need to call it, but for me it's towards the bottom of the list of things I'm looking for....

Adam

BillyMac wrote
JetMetFan: I slightly disagree. Please cite something, in writing, that states that advantage/disadvantage does not apply to violations. I will agree that, in almost all occasions, advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls, but I would not agree that advantage/disadvantage only applies to fouls.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32154-poll-applying-advantage-disadvantage-violations.html#post384619 (Ignore the poll. I hate polls.)

In the immortal words of the infamous Jurassic Referee: "There are certain violations that I think that even the FED rulesmakers would probably agree, if you twisted their arms, that some discretion (read: advantage/disadvantage) is needed to make an appropriate call. Examples might be 3-seconds and the 10-second count on a free-throw shooter.

You won't find "advantage/disadvantage" in the rules for fouls, either. What you will find, however, is that the foul rule indicates there needs to be some sort of obstructing, impeding, displacement, etc., in order to be considered anything but incidental (legal) contact. No such provision exists in the definitions of "violations."

As Camron notes, though, you can always use the "intent and purpose" stuff.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
If instead of advantage/disadvantage you apply intent and purpose and you have a way to not call 3 seconds just because a player happens to be in the lane for 3 seconds.

Adam wrote
You can always use the "intent and purpose" stuff.

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

Scrapper1

frezer11 wrote
Now, as soon as they clearly DO gain an advantage, game over.

Wow, you're strict!! Advantage in the lane results in a forfeit!! 😀

Scrapper1

Camron Rust wrote
If instead of advantage/disadvantage you apply intent and purpose and you have a way to not call 3 seconds just because a player happens to be in the lane for 3 seconds.

When I did my floor training as a brand new official, we reffed 4th and 5th grade game or something like that. During one of my breaks, my observer and I had this conversation:

Him: "What's the purpose of the 3-second rule?"

Me: [deer in headlights. totally overwhelmed.] Confused silence. . .

Him: "It's to keep the big man from camping out under the basket and getting easy scores, right?"

Me: Nodding. . .

Him: "Do you see any big men out there?"

Scrapper1

From the OfficialForum.com archives (originally aired 4/2/02 -- I love the search function!):

You should count 3-seconds like this:

One.

Man, am I hungry. I could go for a nice slice right now. Or maybe Slider will send me a Krispy Kreme. Mmmmmmm. Doughnuts. Man, that Homer Simpson cracks me up. I wonder what it's really like to work in a nuclear power plant. . .

Two.

Is that cheerleader looking at me? I think she's looking at me!! Nope. Darn, she's looking at the point guard camped in the lane. Camped in the lane? Oh, yeah. . . Where was I?

Two-and-a-half.

"Blue. Clear the lane!"

Yawn. Scratch. Adjust pants.

"Blue! Get outta there!"

WWMTDSD? (What would Mark T. DeNucci, Sr do?)

Doggone it!!

Three!! TWEET!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

dee33 wrote
He called a timeout barked some more why aren't yall calling this then begins the rant of three seconds is 1,2,3 toot should be a whistle. How would you guys have handled this situation?

dee33:

If he had ranted to me: "1, 2, 3, toot!" during a TO to me, then we would have been shooting TF free throws after the TO was over, and it would not the Coach's team that would be shooting the free throws.

MTD, Sr.

dee33

The players would come in I say paint they step out game had a great flow was very consistent but this coach was ranting and they had a great lead HE WANTED A 1,2,3 three seconds come on if it were action in the paint ok but it was very minimal

dee33

You guys nailed it I never say a specific number I just say paint they step out why because I had said numbers before and a coach had mentioned to me well why did you tell 5 to get out the paint but you couldnt tell 22 to watch his hands so I just keep it simple paint, hands etcand they oblige they know who you're refferring to. As far as the coach this was my response to him and I'm sure alot will be against this but I told him this after the timeout rant I said coach you know everytime I have my count going and you start with your 3 seconds rant I lose count and have to start over again yup he was pissed.

Adam

dee33 wrote
The players would come in I say paint they step out game had a great flow was very consistent but this coach was ranting and they had a great lead HE WANTED A 1,2,3 three seconds come on if it were action in the paint ok but it was very minimal

from what u writ here it seems as you did it right I wouldnt change the way you called it but i also wouldnt let the coach rant all night that should have been addressed quickly at the latest he gets a T during that timeout have you talked to your assigner to see how he wants it called and how he thinks you should have addressed the coaches behavior i never use the "i start my count over" approach because it is only likely to make the problem worse

frezer11

dee33 wrote
The players would come in I say paint they step out game had a great flow was very consistent but this coach was ranting and they had a great lead HE WANTED A 1,2,3 three seconds come on if it were action in the paint ok but it was very minimal

dee33 wrote
You guys nailed it I never say a specific number I just say paint they step out why because I had said numbers before and a coach had mentioned to me well why did you tell 5 to get out the paint but you couldnt tell 22 to watch his hands so I just keep it simple paint, hands etcand they oblige they know who you're refferring to. As far as the coach this was my response to him and I'm sure alot will be against this but I told him this after the timeout rant I said coach you know everytime I have my count going and you start with your 3 seconds rant I lose count and have to start over again yup he was pissed.

Adam wrote
from what u writ here it seems as you did it right I wouldnt change the way you called it but i also wouldnt let the coach rant all night that should have been addressed quickly at the latest he gets a T during that timeout have you talked to your assigner to see how he wants it called and how he thinks you should have addressed the coaches behavior i never use the "i start my count over" approach because it is only likely to make the problem worse

i feel like this is some sort of competition in which we see who can make the longest sentence without some sort of punctuation i mean does anyone else see that i didnt know where one thought ended and the next begun i just kept saying to myself holy cow shouldnt we be using periods or commas every now and again

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