Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

Adam

BadNewsRef wrote

Most fouls and violations are UNINTENTIONAL so that plays ZERO part into this equation

Illegal contact vs. incidental contact applies to fouls, not violations.

And has nothing to do with accidental vs intentional.

bob jenkins

potato wrote
What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

The ball handler shouldn't be doing this:

Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and/or hand to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal. (from NCAA, but FED is similar)

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

If the ball comes to rest, yes -- and judging that is part of the job.

just another ref

Rob1968 wrote
It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

Agree. It is just by convention that officials often wait until it is touched again in order to resolve the ambiguity of whether the action is a dribble or a bounce pass.

Rob1968

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

just another ref

Rob1968 wrote
I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

It's a judgment call. The majority of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble don't really look much alike.

Camron Rust

Rob1968 wrote
I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

Rob1968

Camron Rust wrote
Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.

Nevadaref

Rob1968 wrote
And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.

So do you think that an official must wait until a player not only starts a new dribble, but ends it as well, to penalize the action as an illegal dribble violation?
That won't be accepted.

Rob1968

That is my understanding. I can't, presently, view a dbl dribble call as having much to do with judgement - it is or is not. Is it possible to describe a play that may/may not be called a dbl dribblle violation, based on judgement?
I'm reminded of the old idea that an attempt at goal - shot - had to be defined by whether it hit the goal or not, in order for the shooter to be able to rebound the miss - that goes way back. With the current definitions of when a shot starts, and when it ends, now, a genuine attempt at goal, in the judgement of the official, allows the shooter to rebound a miss, whether or not it hits the goal. (A distinct situation, but the logic has some relevance.)

Rob1968

Perhaps, this will be of interest in our discussion:
a)A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.
b) A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then fumbles the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

JetMetFan

Rob1968 wrote
That is my understanding. I can't, presently, view a dbl dribble call as having much to do with judgement - it is or is not. Is it possible to describe a play that may/may not be called a dbl dribblle violation, based on judgment?

Remember, in NFHS 9-5 the definition of an illegal dribble begins with the phrase "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended..." It doesn't say anything about the second dribble ending as well. Granted there is judgment involved if A1 has a teammate near him/her who may be receiving a bounce pass but that's generally a Stevie Wonder-type play: we'll be able to tell 99% of the time whether it's a pass. The other 1% is what we get paid for.

Rob1968 wrote
a)A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

A = obvious illegal dribble
B = you have to be there and see how the play is developing

Rob1968 wrote
b) A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then fumbles the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again.

BillyMac

Rob1968 wrote
A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and is not first to touch it.

JetMetFan wrote
You have to be there and see how the play is developing.

And I'll wait up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds to see how this play develops before I decide to sound my whistle for a "double dribble" violation here. This is a very open ended situation. A lot can happen here: ball touches teammate, ball touches opponent, ball goes out of bounds, team control foul, defensive foul, player excessively swinging elbows, players fighting, coach screaming at officials, and being charged with a technical foul, player getting hurt, player displaces eye glasses that fall onto the court, ball slowly stops bouncing and remains motionless on the floor, a meteorite striking, and destroying, the gymnasium, an earthquake, a terrible flood, locusts, etc.

just another ref

BillyMac wrote
And I'll wait up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds to see how this play develops before I decide to sound my whistle for a "double dribble" violation here. This is a very open ended situation. A lot can happen here: ball touches opponent.......

A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

Adam

just another ref wrote
A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

I am.

just another ref

Adam wrote
I am.

You're penalizing the defense for playing good defense by ignoring a violation.

Adam

just another ref wrote
You're penalizing the defense for playing good defense by ignoring a violation.

No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
You're going to give it back to A?

Until I learn how to read a player's mind, yes I am.

Rob1968

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?

just another ref

Adam wrote
No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

Ball was dead when it was knocked out of bounds.

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