"Reverse rant"

DRJ1960

I don't want to get specific on the details but I have a question I hope newer officials will also chime in on....

When is it appropriate for an "experienced" official to critique, berate, lecture, or "instruct" a "newer" official in a way that makes clear that the "newer" official is not only inadequate to the task, but that their replies, comments, arguements (even as to rules) are unwelcome?

Adam

I agree with Camron's take below.

JRutledge

All of this interaction is really somewhat locally based. What is acceptable might be the position of the person doing the critic or the situation.

I am a state clinician so people often ask me what I think. I mostly give that opinion when I am asked or I know the person directly, otherwise I give no advice. And considering I am younger than many officials I observe, I really say little to nothing to those individuals unless they have welcomed my comments. And evaluator that is instructed to evaluate, has every right to give feedback even if unwanted. So it really depends on multiple situations an reasoning for the evaluation. I am sure in some associations there is a hierarchy that is allowed to give such evaluations when not asked for and other places only wanted when asked for.

Peace

Terrapins Fan

How would a newer official have an answer to that?

We were all new at one time. I don't believe anybody deserves to be belittled or berated.

It does a lot more about your partner then it does about the job that you did.

There is a saying get in, get done, get out. I believe that's good advice when working with people like your partner.

Camron Rust

DRJ1960 wrote
I don't want to get specific on the details but I have a question I hope newer officials will also chime in on....

When is it appropriate for an "experienced" official to critique, berate, lecture, or "instruct" a "newer" official in a way that makes clear that the "newer" official is not only inadequate to the task, but that their replies, comments, arguements (even as to rules) are unwelcome?

Sometimes, the new official also needs to just listen and offer not reply or offer an argument.

Now, as far as berating, I have a different opinion on that. We're supposed to be professional. The experienced official, if they are in a position that they should be offering input, should offer their feedback in a way that is beneficial to the recipient. Depending on the recipient this could take many forms but I doubt it ever reaches the level you seem to be implying above.

Adam

Camron Rust wrote
Sometimes, the new official also needs to just listen and offer not reply or offer an argument.

Now, as far as berating, I have a different opinion on that. We're supposed to be professional. The experienced official, if they are in a position that they should be offering input, should offer their feedback in a way that is beneficial to the recipient. Depending on the recipient this could take many forms but I doubt it ever reaches the level you seem to be implying above.

This! I should delete the other stuff I wrote.

JRutledge

Camron Rust wrote
Sometimes, the new official also needs to just listen and offer not reply or offer an argument.

Now, as far as berating, I have a different opinion on that. We're supposed to be professional. The experienced official, if they are in a position that they should be offering input, should offer their feedback in a way that is beneficial to the recipient. Depending on the recipient this could take many forms but I doubt it ever reaches the level you seem to be implying above.

A lot of people consider someone berating them when they telling them something in the most professional way. Many times people only want to hear what they want to hear and when someone says something different they get offended. I have very seldom every seen anyone berate a younger officials. I see all the time younger officials wanting to "ya but" everything rather than listening and just shutting up. I was always told to listen and then use what works and do not use what does not. And most of the time only one or two little things are going to be useful with the best critic.

Peace

MD Longhorn

Berating and belittling has no place.

However, you might consider that what you consider berating might not be intended that way. You give no details, so it's hard to know exactly what precipitated this interaction. If the "veteran" is an evaluator - perhaps his delivery sucks, but it may derive from frustration. Perhaps he's said the same thing 3-4 times to this official - and nothing is sinking in. I can see, at that point, the veteran not wanting to hear the new guy's constant disagreements with his input. (Of course, it's entirely possible that the "veteran" here is just vastly lacking in tact or people skills.)

MD Longhorn

jrutledge wrote
a lot of people consider someone berating them when they telling them something in the most professional way. Many times people only want to hear what they want to hear and when someone says something different they get offended. I have very seldom every seen anyone berate a younger officials. I see all the time younger officials wanting to "ya but" everything rather than listening and just shutting up. I was always told to listen and then use what works and do not use what does not. And most of the time only one or two little things are going to be useful with the best critic.

Peace

[deleted]

Camron Rust wrote
Sometimes, the new official also needs to just listen and offer not reply or offer an argument.

As a new official, I have needed to learn this. There are some times that I just need to shut up and take the criticism, even though I might be right.

For example: I was doing some 3-man games (CYO). An experienced official I had worked with before showed up early for the two games following mine. I asked him to watch me and give me pointers on how to improve. While he was watching me, I called a foul on number 7, and as such had to report the number with two hands. After the game, my observer told me not to report with two hands. I immediately replied "but, but, he had a number that required it!". He didn't understand what I was trying to tell him, and he thought I was just making an excuse. In hindsight I should have just shut up.

grunewar

Don't discount the possibility this could be true too.

We have one very senior official who simply doesn't know how to talk to, coach, council, mentor junior officials and trainees. Berate would be a good word for what he does.

That being said however, hopefully, as is the case here, he is the exception and not the rule. I wish it was nipped in the bud much, much earlier.... and, I don't know if anythng has been/was ever done about it.

JRutledge

grunewar wrote
Don't discount the possibility this could be true too..

That being said however, hopefully, as is the case here, he is the exception and not the rule. I wish it was nipped in the bud much, much earlier.... and, I don't know if anythng has been/was ever done about it.

I am sure there is a little bit of truth in the reaction by the newer officials.

Peace

MD Longhorn

seanwestref wrote
As a new official, I have needed to learn this. There are some times that I just need to shut up and take the criticism, even though I might be right.

For example: I was doing some 3-man games (CYO). An experienced official I had worked with before showed up early for the two games following mine. I asked him to watch me and give me pointers on how to improve. While he was watching me, I called a foul on number 7, and as such had to report the number with two hands. After the game, my observer told me not to report with two hands. I immediately replied "but, but, he had a number that required it!". He didn't understand what I was trying to tell him, and he thought I was just making an excuse. In hindsight I should have just shut up.

Sometimes with people like that, instead of disagreeing or arguing, rephrase it as if you're still asking his advice. For example, instead of "but, but, he had a number that required it!", ask, "How should I report a foul on a number 7?"

BillyMac

The four officials at a high school game site should work together as a team. Varsity officials should arrive at the game site no later than the beginning of the second period of the junior varsity game. Junior varsity officials should stay and observe the varsity game until at least halftime of the varsity game in order to learn by watching experienced officials. Many varsity officials try to show up for the beginning of the junior varsity game, and many junior varsity officials will often stay to observe the entire varsity game. The overlap will insure that an official is available if one of the officials at the site becomes ill, or injured. The Board expects veteran officials to observe and offer constructive appraisals, with specific suggestions, to less experienced officials. The Board expects less experienced officials to seek out, and ask for input, from more experienced officials. Partners are expected to offer constructive appraisals to each other. "So? What did you see out there?” is an easy way to start a post-game conversation.

[deleted]

MD Longhorn wrote
Sometimes with people like that, instead of disagreeing or arguing, rephrase it as if you're still asking his advice. For example, instead of "but, but, he had a number that required it!", ask, "How should I report a foul on a number 7?"

Yup, totally agree. And I still don't know the answer, if you would care to inform me.

bob jenkins

Google Sign Language.

One of them has an alternate meaning, so I probably wouldn't use it.

I have used this before; no one batted an eye.

Raymond

seanwestref wrote
Yup, totally agree. And I still don't know the answer, if you would care to inform me.

There is no proper way b/c 7 is an illegal number. So whatever effectively communicates it to the table is sufficient.