Rule question

ODog

just another ref wrote
Curious as to the specifics of the "myth" as taught in your class.

As you know all too well from the jackals in the stands, it seems a large number of people think a three-second violation is for standing in the lane for 3 seconds, without regard to the location of the ball or who has control of it.

And even when you finally explain it to "that coach" who just decides to yell "three seconds" indiscriminately, you tend to get the "OK, I didn't realilze that. Thank you."

And now we know even working officials who have passed a test also subscribe to the myth.

MD Longhorn

seanwestref wrote
Maybe because they are more polite than you? What would "calling BS" on my questions look like? Am I not allowed to ask simple, basic questions? (sarcasm here, also rhetorical)

APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

Then you make the call and a coach yells at you for it. Did it not occur to you that you MIGHT be wrong? Sure as hell would have occurred to me - and I'd be digging in the rule book that night - likely, if possible, in the locker room before driving off. I would bet that my first year (for each sport), I was in the rulebook before driving off at least 3/4 of the time. Possibly to confirm I was right about something, and sometimes learning I was wrong. The coach jumping on you for not knowing a rule in your first year should ALWAYS trigger this.

We try to welcome new officials here. Sometimes we do a crappy job of it, but based on this thread alone, I'd say you got a better welcome than many. We all remember being new. But we also remember checking the BOOK first - then possibly coming here and stating a situation, saying what we found in the book, and then asking if we were interpreting the book right.

just another ref

seanwestref wrote
Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

As the trail, does it matter which arm I use for the 10-second count? I typically use the inside arm, but I watched a few varsity games on tv this week and all the officials used the outside arm.

Since we're all 'fessing up and getting along, I'll admit now, after this post, I almost asked: Is this guy putting us on?

Instead I'll just say that I'm certain really soon sean will realize how elementary a couple of his questions were.

Eastshire

MD Longhorn wrote
APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

When I first started, the test to get my license required 80 correct answers out of 100. So I could be dead wrong about 20% of the game and still get licensed. It's easy to see how 3 seconds could be part of the 20% you didn't know.

I haven't had to take a basketball rules exam to maintain my license since 2000.

I do take a soccer exam every year, but there the passing score is just 75%.

just another ref

Here, passing is only 70% and the questions are true/false. This means, theoretically, you would get 50% right if you don't even read the questions.
You really don't have to know much to pass the test.

On the other hand, there are questions on the test that never come up anywhere else.

[deleted]

Camron Rust wrote
For most rookies, they get a lot of stuff wrong even after they've heard it....it is overload. You can find a lot of stuff in the book as you need while taking the test but that doesn't mean they're remember it all on demand.

Exactly right. There are so many rules and cases for a first-year guy to consider, it is very overwhelming at times.

ODog wrote
I just find it scary and borderline reckless that someone who actually has a rules book, passed a test and is doing games isn't familiar with the 3-second rule -- at all.

You are absolutely correct, it is my job and responsibility to know the 3-second rule. I blew that call.

MD Longhorn wrote
If you did, you'd be wrong.

I know, someone already answered that for me.

MD Longhorn wrote
Did it not occur to you that you MIGHT be wrong? Sure as hell would have occurred to me - and I'd be digging in the rule book that night - likely, if possible, in the locker room before driving off.

Yes, I did check the book right away. I had a 7-5-7a situation happen recently where my partner insisted that passing out of bounds was a violation. I did not know the rule, checked at halftime, and apologized to the coach when I came out at halftime. The coach could do nothing but shake my hand and the game went on. As a first-year guy I do recognize knowing the rulebook is one of the priorities and I am working on it. However, I have found some of the intricacies of the rules to be difficult to understand.

Here is my reasoning for counting 3-seconds during an inbound. Rule 9-7-1: "A player shall not remain for three seconds....while the ball is in control of his/her team in his/her frontcourt". I combined that rule with 4-12-2d, while not realizing that the out-of-bounds area surrounding the frontcourt is not also considered frontcourt. From an advantage/disadvantage viewpoint it is easy to consider that, during a frontcourt endline throw-in, a player might box out his defender while directly under the basket, gaining what I think is an unfair advantage.

Eastshire wrote
So I could be dead wrong about 20% of the game and still get licensed. It's easy to see how 3 seconds could be part of the 20% you didn't know.

In this thread, I have only asked about plays that 1) I was unsure about after the game ended, and 2) that I looked up in the rule/casebook but was confused by the wordings. I asked about the 3-second call I made, I was wrong. I asked about the over-and-back call I made, I was right. Simple questions perhaps, but mark my words: I will not make the same mistake twice. That's my takeaway from this thread, and why I come here to learn from you guys.

MD Longhorn

Fair enough.

Back to the understanding that OOB is not frontcourt, Sean... if you had a throw-in under the basket, and he threw it all the way over the entire frontcourt to land (or be caught) in the backcourt ... would you have a violation? (Assume you're not an NBA ref for the purposes of this conversation).

[deleted]

MD Longhorn wrote
Fair enough.

Back to the understanding that OOB is not frontcourt, Sean... if you had a throw-in under the basket, and he threw it all the way over the entire frontcourt to land (or be caught) in the backcourt ... would you have a violation? (Assume you're not an NBA ref for the purposes of this conversation).

No, I would not. OOB is neither in the frontcourt, nor the backcourt, and possession can be gained in either court with no violation.

Sean

jTheUmp

seanwestref wrote
In this thread, I have only asked about plays that 1) I was unsure about after the game ended, and 2) that I looked up in the rule/casebook but was confused by the wordings. I asked about the 3-second call I made, I was wrong. I asked about the over-and-back call I made, I was right. Simple questions perhaps, but mark my words: I will not make the same mistake twice. That's my takeaway from this thread, and why I come here to learn from you guys.

And now you'll never make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that's one of the best ways that we learn... make an incorrect call, look it up afterwards, and realize that you screwed up.

bob jenkins

jTheUmp wrote
And now you'll never make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that's one of the best ways that we learn... make an incorrect call, look it up afterwards, and realize that you screwed up.

Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

MD Longhorn

seanwestref wrote
No, I would not. OOB is neither in the frontcourt, nor the backcourt, and possession can be gained in either court with no violation.

Sean

Exactly - same logic applies to 3 seconds. (I guess I should have asked if you would have ruled this way BEFORE learning today that OOB was not in the frontcourt)

OKREF

Seems he might be trying to apply the "team control" during a throw in to this situation, when it really only applies to a foul by the offense on a throw in. I think that is what is confusing him.

Raymond

OKREF wrote
Seems he might be trying to apply the "team control" during a throw in to this situation, when it really only applies to a foul by the offense on a throw in. I think that is what is confusing him.

That, and he was incorrectly thinking that you could have FC status during a throw-in.

ODog

BadNewsRef wrote
That, and he was incorrectly thinking that you could have FC status during a throw-in.

... that, and he was incorrectly thinking the 3-second count is not terminated on shot attempts.

Camron Rust

ODog wrote
Because classes make it significantly less likely you'll have a "certified" official calling 3 seconds on inbounds plays and during shot and rebound attempts. Just offering the exam without any contextual rules/floor training is irresponsible and unfair to local teams who use that pool of officials.

Three seconds is also probably the top myth debunked in a new officials class, the kind of "light bulb" information that makes you say to yourself, "Whoa. That's one to file away."

FYI, I teach those classes in my area.

You have to consider that you get a wide variety of people that want to be officials....from someone who barely knows the basketball is round to those that have been paid to play professionally. It is simply unrealistic to expect that all of them will know all of the rules and mechanics after even 1-2 years of classes. It is just not going to happen in the real world. That is why they're on the freshman games (or middle school in some areas). They're there to make mistakes....of all types. That is how they ultimately learn. For that matter, I've corrected accomplished 20-year vets on rules issues on more than one occasion..

If you made people be experts in the rules before giving them their first game, we'd never get new people to last long enough to work their first game and we'd be extremely shorthanded.

ODog

I just think if seanwestref had gone to a class to complement the test -- your class included, CRust -- he wouldn't be asking about the fundamental principles of one of the rules most butchered by fans, coaches and players.

This isn't "knowing ALL the rules" (which I certainly don't). This is knowing the 3-second rule, the one you know from your classes has everyone going "ahhhhh haaa," similar to when you tell them someone can rebound their own airball or that a kick has to be intentional.

Every game every one of us has ever done has had at least one person (and likely many more) mistakenly clamoring for 3 seconds.

I do see what you're saying re: the spectrum, however. I guess I don't consider that people who haven't been around basketball much would take an interest in officiating it, even though I've seen it in action. You're definitely right.

ODog

... and I know I've contributed to making this thread way longer than it needed to be by being flabbergasted and suspicious of its content.

Now that it's proven to be a sincere inquiry, I humbly lay down my sword.

jTheUmp

ODog wrote
... I guess I don't consider that people who haven't been around basketball much would take an interest in officiating it, even though I've seen it in action...

I didn't play basketball beyond 8th grade, despite the fact that I was 6'2" as a high school freshman (tallest in my class).

Got into officiating basketball mainly for "something to do" during the winter after football season ended. And believe me, I made A LOT of mistakes that first year, like the game where I called OOB on 5 or 6 different occasions for a ball hitting the top of the backboard. My partner (a seasoned veteran) didn't correct me until we got into the locker room after the game. I felt like an idiot, but he cheered me up with a "Hey, it's a freshman game, that's why you start here. And now you'll never make that mistake again".

Adam

jTheUmp wrote
I didn't play basketball beyond 8th grade, despite the fact that I was 6'2" as a high school freshman (tallest in my class).

Got into officiating basketball mainly for "something to do" during the winter after football season ended. And believe me, I made A LOT of mistakes that first year, like the game where I called OOB on 5 or 6 different occasions for a ball hitting the top of the backboard. My partner (a seasoned veteran) didn't correct me until we got into the locker room after the game. I felt like an idiot, but he cheered me up with a "Hey, it's a freshman game, that's why you start here. And now you'll never make that mistake again".

1. You had five of these plays in one game? If I see five in a season, that's a lot.

2. I would have corrected you much sooner (first chance to talk.)

ODog

jTheUmp wrote
... like the game where I called OOB on 5 or 6 different occasions for a ball hitting the top of the backboard. My partner (a seasoned veteran) didn't correct me until we got into the locker room after the game.

Reminds me of a tale I've told on here before where I did an AAU game in Conn. w/a woman I'd never met before. About 1 minute into the game, A1's shot bounces high off the rim and bounces on top of the backboard before falling back into play. FROM THE LEAD (alarm #1), she whistles OOB (alarm #2). I will add this was a freestanding, portable hoop. Think NBA-style, but w/o the cameras and shot clock -- nothing above the board at all.

During a time-out shortly thereafter, I kindly went over and asked her what she had on that play. "It hit the top of the backboard." "And...?" "That's out of bounds." "No, it's not."

... and then the kicker: "Oh, well I'm from Mass., and up there, it's out of bounds."

"Yeah, I am too. And it's the same everywhere -- in."

"OK, we can do it your way if you want." 😕

I don't have to tell you how the rest of the game went. And yeah, I guess backboard conundrums just find me😉

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