When "shall" means "must"??

letemplay

Free throw lineup: 8-1-4c....first marked lane spaces... "SHALL be occupied by opponents of the free thrower" Does this mean it is a violation if both of these spaces are not taken? EX: A1 has two shots coming, B HC takes the few seconds on the first shot to huddle his team on sideline for quick instruction, then sending them out to the spaces for second shot. First shot is missed..A1 gets another for B lane violation?

bob jenkins

"Shall" is most often used to be synonymous with "must" (it can also be the first person future tense of the verb "to be").

But, it's not a violation (since it's not following a time out). 😉

Tio

Yes, it is a violation if the first marked lane space (the very first spot is always unoccupied now) is not occupied by the opponent of the shooter.

My advice would be to always make sure you have guys lined up correctly before administering the free throw.

BillyMac

Tio wrote
Yes, it is a violation if the first marked lane space (the very first spot is always unoccupied now) is not occupied by the opponent of the shooter.

Let's take it up a notch. It's also a violation is the "first" space is occupied by a teammate of the free throw shooter, actually, I believe that it's a double violation, one, because the teammate is there, and two, because the opponent isn't there.

Freddy

Tio wrote
Yes, it is a violation if the first marked lane space (the very first spot is always unoccupied now) is not occupied by the opponent of the shooter.

Don't think 10.1.5C agrees with you. It's not a violation. It's a T, if merited.

10.1.5C: "...(after a foul is reported)...(b) two B players are not occupying the first two marked spaces next to the end line as required. RULING: ... In (b), Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is a delay, a team technical foul shall be charged to team B."

I blew this two years ago by giving a DoG warning instead of a T when the coach insisted on keeping his five players by him near his bench while we were preparing for the opposing team to shoot free throws on the other end.

OKREF

You simply don't start the free throw until you make sure the defense is there.

letemplay

When "simply" means "shoulda". Agreed, that's what you would have wanted, but in case of a screw-up, like not getting those guys there or if the coach just wants to talk to one of the two guys he's wants in the spots, do you wait on him? Or, if you are the administering official and you bounce the ball to the shooter and then realize something doesn't look right...while the shots on the way and then missed, you're wracking your brain to remember what to do.

tjones1

letemplay wrote
When "simply" means "shoulda". Agreed, that's what you would have wanted, but in case of a screw-up, like not getting those guys there or if the coach just wants to talk to one of the two guys he's wants in the spots, do you wait on him? Or, if you are the administering official and you bounce the ball to the shooter and then realize something doesn't look right...while the shots on the way and then missed, you're wracking your brain to remember what to do.

If I'm administering the free throw, I always check to see if I have ten players, the first two spots are filled, and they are properly lined up.

There are 5 correctable errors... 4 involve free throws. Make sure you take your time.

BktBallRef

letemplay wrote
When "simply" means "shoulda". Agreed, that's what you would have wanted, but in case of a screw-up, like not getting those guys there or if the coach just wants to talk to one of the two guys he's wants in the spots, do you wait on him?

Hell no, you don't wait on him.

Doesn't he have 4 other players that can occupy those two spots?????

You give a reasonable opportunity to get two players in the spot. If they continue to delay, you whistle the T.

Or, if you are the administering official and you bounce the ball to the shooter and then realize something doesn't look right...while the shots on the way and then missed, you're wracking your brain to remember what to do.

Well, then you've screwed up. I wouldn't call the T because the FT hasn't been delayed. But I probably would call a violaion if the FT is missed.

OKREF

BktBallRef wrote
Hell no, you don't wait on him.

Doesn't he have 4 other players that can occupy those two spots?????

You give a reasonable opportunity to get two players in the spot. If they continue to delay, you whistle the T.

Well, then you've screwed up. I wouldn't call the T because the FT hasn't been delayed. But I probably would call a violaion if the FT is missed.

I agree, however I am going to get the coach and tell him we need 2 guys on the blocks. Just seems that this situation can be prevented, if we want it to.

letemplay

BktBallRef wrote
Hell no, you don't wait on him.

Doesn't he have 4 other players that can occupy those two spots?????

You give a reasonable opportunity to get two players in the spot. If they continue to delay, you whistle the T.

Well, then you've screwed up. I wouldn't call the T because the FT hasn't been delayed. But I probably would call a violaion if the FT is missed.

that's what I was looking for, could a violation be called even if ref "screwed up" and didnt be sure both spots were taken by opponents of the shooter?

bob jenkins

letemplay wrote
When "simply" means "shoulda". Agreed, that's what you would have wanted, but in case of a screw-up, like not getting those guys there or if the coach just wants to talk to one of the two guys he's wants in the spots, do you wait on him? Or, if you are the administering official and you bounce the ball to the shooter and then realize something doesn't look right...while the shots on the way and then missed, you're wracking your brain to remember what to do.

Use good game management. "Coach, I need these two spots filled." "Coach, if I don't get two players here, it will be a T."

(It's never gone further than that.)

BillyMac

bob Jenkins wrote
"If I don't get two players here, it will be a T."

Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

Adam

BillyMac wrote
Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

Not for this situation. There's no provision.

PG_Ref

Adam wrote
Not for this situation. There's no provision.

Different procedure if after a time out ...

10.1.5 SITUATION A:

A1 is fouled by B1 during an unsuccessful try and is awarded two free throws. Team B requests and is granted a charged 60-second time-out. Team B disregards the 15-second warning signal and the signal ending the time-out and is still huddling with their coach at the end of the charged time-out.

RULING: The official shall administer the first free throw using the resumption-of-play procedure and a violation occurs if it is missed. If two B players are not in the required position when the official is ready to put the ball in play for the substitute throw, a delay of game technical foul will be assessed. If the first attempt is good, the same procedure is used for the second. (9-1-2; 10-1-5b)

Adam

Agreed, but Billy wanted to use it without a timeout.

PG_Ref

Adam wrote
Agreed, but Billy wanted to use it without a timeout.

Ahhh ... I see. Then tell Billy to stop it.

letemplay

It seems 10.1.5c says the same, just no timeout is mentioned and neither is a violation.

Adam

PG_Ref wrote
Ahhh ... I see. Then tell Billy to stop it.

We've tried.

bob jenkins

BillyMac wrote
Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

After a TO (or intermission -- but I can't figure out how you'd have FTs with the lane filled after an intermission) -- use the resumption of play procedure if the lower spaces aren't filled.

Not after a TO -- lower spaces must be filled or it's a T.

(The same is true for the FT shooter.)