flagrant 2 contact technical foul during live ball?

Buckle

(NCAAW rules) Airborne shooter A1 excessively swings elbow into the face of B1. Is this a flagrant 2 contact personal foul or a flagrant 2 contact technical foul that occurred during a live ball? Seems like it should be "personal" but Rule 4.29.3 cites an exception:

Flagrant 2 technical foul. A flagrant 2 technical foul can be either contact or non-contact.

1. A flagrant 2 contact technical foul occurs when the ball is dead and the contact is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme.

a. An exception may be a foul committed by an airborne shooter.

😕

APG

Remember, the airborne exception allows us in NF and NCAA-W to call a player control foul on an airborne shooter even if the ball is dead by rule...a dunk, and while the player is coming down to the ground, and the airborne shooter commits a foul. Technically, the ball is dead after the made basket, and if we didn't have this exception, then the airborne shooter could foul/or be fouled and the only route we could go is intentional/flagrant technical (FF1/FF2).

CLH

Buckle wrote
(NCAAW rules) Airborne shooter A1 excessively swings elbow into the face of B1. Is this a flagrant 2 contact personal foul or a flagrant 2 contact technical foul that occurred during a live ball? Seems like it should be "personal" but Rule 4.29.3 cites an exception:

Flagrant 2 technical foul. A flagrant 2 technical foul can be either contact or non-contact.

1. A flagrant 2 contact technical foul occurs when the ball is dead and the contact is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme.

a. An exception may be a foul committed by an airborne shooter.

:confused:

There is nothing changed about the rule, other than the name. This is FF2 personal and she is ejected. You're overthinking this.

bob jenkins

CLH wrote
There is nothing changed about the rule, other than the name. This is FF2 personal and she is ejected. You're overthinking this.

While I agree, I think the definition of F2P says "while the ball is live." Period. No exceptions listed.

And, it's unclear exactly what the exception in F2T is referring to.

I got both questions on my test. Still trying to decide how to answer them.

M&M Guy

bob jenkins wrote
While I agree, I think the definition of F2P says "while the ball is live." Period. No exceptions listed.

And, it's unclear exactly what the exception in F2T is referring to.

I got both questions on my test. Still trying to decide how to answer them.

I believe the exception is explained in A.R. 101 in the case book:

(Women) Is it possible for airborne shooter A1 to commit a foul that would not be a player-control foul?
RULING: Yes. The airborne shooter could be charged with a personal foul, a flagrant 1 personal foul, a flagrant 2 personal foul or with a flagrant 2 noncontact technical foul. None of these fouls can be a player-control foul. When an airborne shooter commits a foul that is not a player-control foul, the infraction shall be penalized as dictated by the type of foul.
(Rule 4-29.2.a.1.b)

BayStateRef

The AR says there are four possible fouls by an airborne shooter that are not player control:

personal foul
flagrant 1 personal foul
flagrant 2 personal foul
flagrant 2 non-contact technical foul

The test question asks if a flagrant 2 contact technical foul can occur during a live ball.

That is not one of the four options listed in the AR. I am still trying to figure out why the exception exists. If the player dunks the ball (now the ball is dead) and then commits a flagrant 2 foul (kicks someone in the head; excessive elbow to the face....whatever you can envision to be "not only excessive, but also severe or extreme"), why do we need the exception for an airborne shooter? Flagrant contact during a dead ball is a technical foul. The rule just told us that.

Camron Rust

BayStateRef wrote
The AR says there are four possible fouls by an airborne shooter that are not player control:

personal foul

flagrant 1 personal foul

flagrant 2 personal foul

flagrant 2 non-contact technical foul

The test question asks if a flagrant 2 contact technical foul can occur during a live ball.

That is not one of the four options listed in the AR. I am still trying to figure out why the exception exists. If the player dunks the ball (now the ball is dead) and then commits a flagrant 2 foul (kicks someone in the head; excessive elbow to the face....whatever you can envision to be "not only excessive, but also severe or extreme"), why do we need the exception for an airborne shooter? Flagrant contact during a dead ball is a technical foul. The rule just told us that.

Contact fouls by an airborne shooter are personal fouls due to the exception.

BayStateRef

Camron Rust wrote
Contact fouls by an airborne shooter are personal fouls due to the exception.

So if the action is not flagrant, we have a player control foul.

Since it is flagrant, but the ball is dead, we have a flagrant 2 personal foul, but not a flagrant 2 technical foul?

So why not put the exception with the rule for Flagrant 2 personal foul...and say it is during a live ball....except when the foul is committed by an airborne shooter?

Other than getting the answer correct on the exam, the only practical application is who shoots the free throws: the player who was fouled vs. any eligible player (or sub)?

Camron Rust

BayStateRef wrote
So if the action is not flagrant, we have a player control foul.

Since it is flagrant, but the ball is dead, we have a flagrant 2 personal foul, but not a flagrant 2 technical foul?

So why not put the exception with the rule for Flagrant 2 personal foul...and say it is during a live ball....except when the foul is committed by an airborne shooter?

Other than getting the answer correct on the exam, the only practical application is who shoots the free throws: the player who was fouled vs. any eligible player (or sub)?

Change the order of thinking....

Contact foul...

Live ball or by/on an airborne shooter during a dead ball => Personal

Other dead ball => technical

Then determine the severity....."normal", F1 or F2....noting that "normal" contact during a dead ball and NOT by/on an airborne shooter is ignored.

bob jenkins

BayStateRef wrote
So why not put the exception with the rule for Flagrant 2 personal foul...and say it is during a live ball....except when the foul is committed by an airborne shooter?

I agree with this.

And, there are two quesions (at least) on the test:

A Flagrant 2 Contact T can occur during a live ball (I have False)

A Flagrant 2 Personal can occur during a dead ball (I have True).

I'm "sure" those are the correct interps -- but they (especially the latter) don't seem to quite jibe with the written rule.

BayStateRef

bob jenkins wrote
I agree with this.

And, there are two quesions (at least) on the test:

A Flagrant 2 Contact T can occur during a live ball (I have False)

A Flagrant 2 Personal can occur during a dead ball (I have True).

I'm "sure" those are the correct interps -- but they (especially the latter) don't seem to quite jibe with the written rule.

You might want to reconsider one of your answers.

The reality, though, is that one of them is correct (a Flagrant 2 contact technical foul can only be during a dead ball) and one is not -- despite the language of the definition: "A flagrant 2 personal foul (occurs) while the ball is live."

The exception for the flagrant 2 contact technical is, indeed, misplaced.

When an airborne shooter commits a flagrant foul after the ball is dead (as after a dunk, but before returning to the floor), the exception says that is not a technical foul. But it is a flagrant personal foul for contact during a dead ball, which Rule 29-2.6.d says is not possible.

I think the test wants an "exact knowledge" of the printed definition.