Punt Near Endzone

JRutledge

mbcrowder wrote
Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up.

I do not know what you do or don't work or have worked in the past. I have working knowledge of many rules as I work multiple levels.

And if you are asked to work a FED game and you do not use a rulebook to learn a rule, you are in bigger trouble than I would have ever thought. I was answer a question for a person that does not work football, not to clarify something for you. It is not my responsibility to give you rules to understand. I will bet I work more sports and levels than you do and it is my responsibility to learn rules, not anyone on this board. I am even having to learn some NCAA Rules that I have never had to apply because of a position change and I have never come here for clarification. That is my responsibility to learn. Maybe you need people to hold your hand, I tend to look in other places.

mbcrowder wrote
Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

No, because that is not how I understand the rule or how I enforce the rule or explain the rule. Never have and never will. There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

mbcrowder wrote
(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out? And you did not start the thread or really need me to explain a rule to you. But I am the jerk? I am the one with the problem? That is very rich for sure.

Peace

Mike L

Rut,

although I've vowed to not get in the middle of pissing matches here any more, I think here is the problem with your original post.

Quote from MOOfficial:

I'm not a football official

Quote from JRutledge:

We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball.

Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple "first touches" and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

JRutledge

Mike L wrote
Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple first touches and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

Yes I think he would not know what that means off the bat. But he is an official so he would likely understand there are rulebook terms that are not in the normal English or have meanings he is not familiar with. And if he had a problem with what I said, he can come here and say that.

I also teach a football class (and a basketball class I designed for an organization for the third year starting in October) every year and have been doing it for years now. Most people have never officiated a single sport when they come to the class. We still use the proper terms off the bat and explain the definitions when appropriate if need be.

I think we should let MOofficial speak for himself and what he was confused by or understand. He might not have been looking for a rule as much as a mechanic. After all he did ask about the feet and touching the GL. I give him a little more credit than some here are giving him.

Peace

MD Longhorn

JRutledge wrote
There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out?
Peace

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

JRutledge

mbcrowder wrote
Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.

mbcrowder wrote
So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

asdf

JRutledge wrote
I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.

I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Mike L

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

bisonlj

asdf wrote
Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

asdf

Mike L wrote
Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

Exactly......

If any K player touches a crimmage kick in this manner (talking about first touching) R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching......"

asdf

bisonlj wrote
That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by
any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

Too quick for me bison.....

JRutledge

Mike L wrote
Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

I do not know how many here are Back Judges, but I doubt or have never seen one bean back 5 different spots. You bean bag one and you put the ball at the furthest most point if the kick ends without a return. The same thing on a free kick. You bean bag the spot of first touching in the neutral zone and then you keep officiating. Then whatever is the most advantageous spot is what we are going to put the ball. That is what I am looking for (which was the question) and let my Referee know what is that spot or if the ball is behind the spot.

I think this conversation is asinine. It is silly beyond belief because I would bet that most individuals have not worked the Back Judge position at the level I have and had to make these decisions on a regular basis as I have. Many here are making it complicated by trying to split hairs which the spot is. In almost all the situations that take place the K team touches the ball they are not trying to bat the ball all over the place. If the ball goes toward R's goal they are going to try to keep it going towards that goal. If the ball goes back toward K's goal line K is likely to possess the ball and if they don't it will be pretty obvious where we are going to put the ball.

Is this really that hard?

Peace

golfnref

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

JRutledge

golfnref wrote
He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

Whatever man. I have been doing this a long time and my work on the field speaks for itself. I am sorry I am not overly technical like some here and likely can only prove it on here and not on the field. Thanks for the laugh!!!

I did not lose a single game or position by what those want to think as we are having this conversation. 😉

Peace

bisonlj

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

JRutledge

bisonlj wrote
JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

I really do not care anymore. It is your issue, not mine.

I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. I am only marking first touching once with a bean bag (as a Back Judge and only having so many bean bags to begin with) and the ball will be place at one spot or the other in most case. If you need someone to give you all the possibilities, then you either do not know how to read the rules (because there are many rules with exceptions and different situations that apply) then I do not know what to tell you. And still the OPer has not said they had a problem understanding what they asked. 😉

Peace

asdf

Anyone ever see the episode on Happy Days where The Fonz was uttering.....

"I was wrrrrrrrrrrruuunnnn.... I was wwrruuunnnnnnn....." ???? 😃😃😃

He just couldn''t bring himself to admit it.

waltjp

JRutledge wrote
I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

MD Longhorn

asdf wrote
Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. I KNOW this to be wrong in NCAA, and have been convinced by the other posts here that it's wrong in FED too. Not starting the next play at the 4 is contrary to not only rule but fairness. Ignoring part of the rule is laziness, nothing less.

MD Longhorn

JRutledge wrote
Is this really that hard? Peace

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

JRutledge

waltjp wrote
Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you. 😀

Peace

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