Pay cut to work 3 man?

doubleringer

We went to 3 man full time about 5 years ago around here. Up until then, we did often take a pay cut to work 3 man. I had no problem doing it since I knew it made for a better game and made me a better official for the future. I'd say communicate with your partners and see what they think. If they are willing to take the cut, I'd go 3.

Jeremy Hohn

We have to take a pay cut for working 3 person in comparison to 2 person. We are also considering going to a "flat rate" next season with no mileage. What are your associations doing?

Adam

I think most areas have a pay cut of some degree compared to the 2 person fees. Here, it's (recommended by the state) $55 for two, or $47 for three.

JRutledge

Snaqwells wrote
I think most areas have a pay cut of some degree compared to the 2 person fees. Here, it's (recommended by the state) $55 for two, or $47 for three.

Not us man. Three person pays more than two for a single game.

Peace

Adam

JRutledge wrote
Not us man. Three person pays more than two for a single game.

Peace

Must have something to do with Chicago politics. 🙂

Seriously, I'm impressed. Is it because the smaller schools are the ones using 2 person for varsity?

JRutledge

Snaqwells wrote
Must have something to do with Chicago politics. 🙂

Seriously, I'm impressed. Is it because the smaller schools are the ones using 2 person for varsity?

Actually this is not about Chicago at all. I live in the suburbs, but I officiate all over the state from the Northern part to West Central Illinois and Central Illinois. I work big and small schools and every game is 3 Person. The only thing that might happen with some small schools is they ask the officials to work a JV/Varsity double header. But that is starting to go away more and more. I cannot speak for the entire state, but I work in a lot of places and this is the norm across the parts I have seen.

Peace

Adam

JRutledge wrote
Actually this is not about Chicago at all. I live in the suburbs, but I officiate all over the state from the Northern part to West Central Illinois and Central Illinois. I work big and small schools and every game is 3 Person. The only thing that might happen with some small schools is they ask the officials to work a JV/Varsity double header. But that is starting to go away more and more. I cannot speak for the entire state, but I work in a lot of places and this is the norm across the parts I have seen.

Peace

Gotcha. 2 man = JV. 🙂

JRutledge

Snaqwells wrote
Gotcha. 2 man = JV. 🙂

Or Freshman or Sophomore (JV means the same thing based on what part of the state you are from) or any level that is not varsity. Again like I said there are some exceptions, but I have not worked a varsity game with 2 officials on purpose for some years now.

Peace

Adam

JRutledge wrote
Or Freshman or Sophomore (JV means the same thing based on what part of the state you are from) or any level that is not varsity. Again like I said there are some exceptions, but I have not worked a varsity game with 2 officials on purpose for some years now.

Peace

I wasn't aware of any schools in CO that used two until December when there were only two varsity guys following my JV double header. Smaller charter school in town. I guess they need that extra $33 per game.

BillyMac

One problem here in Connecticut, especially in my little corner of Connecticut. We don't have enough varsity officials to cover three person games on our busiest nights. Heck, on a few Friday nights during the season, especially during flu season, and when a few officials might be injured, we don't have enough varsity officials to cover two person games. A few weeks ago, we received an urgent email from our assigner asking us to reconsider opening up a Friday night if we had previously blocked it out.

That, and financial considerations, are the two main reasons why Connecticut is, for the most part, a two person state.

Camron Rust

LocDog249 wrote
This seems like a great idea to me. Our association is the only one that provides officials for this area, so I would think that if we just stood firm and said we want 3 man, the schools would have to give it to us if they wanted our associations services. Now I know it wouldn't be something that would happen overnight, but if the schools were giving 2 years or so, knowing the change is coming, they could find the extra money for it. Easiest way to me would be to raise ticket prices $.50-1.00 each season until the change takes effect.

LocDog and I are in the same association but have not yet met (he just moved here this season).

This is a nice idea except that the associations in Oregon don't get to set their fees...we have little say. The OSAA sets the fees that assoications are permitted to charge schools/pay officials for all JV and Varsity games (and, at the same time, it also sets the fees that the schools are required to pay). The OSAA also is in control of what kinds of crews are used for each type of games. Associations are chartered by the OSAA and are required to follow the OSAA regulations. Freshmane/Sophomore games are not as regulated...schools can use independant organizations/officials.

RichMSN wrote
This would never work, BTW. There are *always* people willing to work the games. May not be the current set of officials, but could be those who feel they should be working varsity and aren't or whatever. And enough of the current set would work regardless of what the group decided, for whatever reason. When the games went on, officials would start coming back, too.

While there may be people willing to work the games, they can't. The OSAA will not let the schools hire through anyone but chartered organizations. And, the OSAA will not permit organizations to compete for schools. They generally assign the schools to the organizations.

This prevents a lot of conflict situations....schools can't shop for officials groups that they like based on a couple of wins/losses. The organizations are not incline to behave unethically to win a few more schools.

On occassion, there have been new organizations that have been chartered and areas split, but it doesn't happen often.

Jfpdi

We do not have 3 person crews mandated except for sectional semi and championship games. We do have a some senior officials hoping for 3 person crews so they will not have to give up their varsity status because they are no longer able to keep up in the 2 person game. This actually hurst the younger guys who have to go to other areas to work varsity level games.

As for the comment of not having 2 good officials work with a 3rd who should be at the jv level how do you expect new guys to learn and improve at 3 man if they never get to work it? I may only be guessing but just because states and districts use 3 man at the varsity level does not mean they are using it at the JV level so the training for 3 man may have to ba at the varsity level. Just my opinion

Texas Aggie

I enjoy working 2-person much more

I really don't understand why. I didn't really realize how much there can be missed in a 2 person game until I worked 3 almost exclusively.

Way back when when HS, Juco, and a large amount of small college was still 2 man, I agreed with an assessment about it not really needed at the lower levels. But the HS game now is better than the small college game was 15 years ago and with the floor spread from sideline to sideline up and down the floor, 2 man WILL miss something regardless of how conditioned you are.

Rich

Texas Aggie wrote
I really don't understand why. I didn't really realize how much there can be missed in a 2 person game until I worked 3 almost exclusively.

Way back when when HS, Juco, and a large amount of small college was still 2 man, I agreed with an assessment about it not really needed at the lower levels. But the HS game now is better than the small college game was 15 years ago and with the floor spread from sideline to sideline up and down the floor, 2 man WILL miss something regardless of how conditioned you are.

Tonight was one of those nights where I wish we had 3. We had a lot of jockeying in the post and a lot of cutters and screeners who were either setting borderline screens or getting chucked/held. I remember calling at least 5 off-ball fouls (and we only had 26 fouls total in the game). With 2-person and a trail on ball, the lead has no choice but to miss some of the other activity.

These days I'm in good enough shape to work any teams 2-person. I get a better workout, sure. I do enjoy the challenge. But it doesn't make for better officiating.

LocDog249

Texas Aggie wrote
I really don't understand why. I didn't really realize how much there can be missed in a 2 person game until I worked 3 almost exclusively.

Maybe I should try to get video clips together from some of the games and edit it together so that the coaches can see all the calls that were missed that would have gone in their favor... lol Then just hope they don't realize that there would be a similar amount of calls missed that would go in the other teams favor.

LocDog249

Camron Rust wrote
LocDog and I are in the same association but have not yet met (he just moved here this season).

This is a nice idea except that the associations in Oregon don't get to set their fees...we have little say. The OSAA sets the fees that assoications are permitted to charge schools/pay officials for all JV and Varsity games (and, at the same time, it also sets the fees that the schools are required to pay). The OSAA also is in control of what kinds of crews are used for each type of games. Associations are chartered by the OSAA and are required to follow the OSAA regulations. Freshmane/Sophomore games are not as regulated...schools can use independant organizations/officials.

While there may be people willing to work the games, they can't. The OSAA will not let the schools hire through anyone but chartered organizations. And, the OSAA will not permit organizations to compete for schools. They generally assign the schools to the organizations.

This prevents a lot of conflict situations....schools can't shop for officials groups that they like based on a couple of wins/losses. The organizations are not incline to behave unethically to win a few more schools.

On occassion, there have been new organizations that have been chartered and areas split, but it doesn't happen often.

I've been told by several officials that the schools voted down 3 man (not sure if it would have taken effect this season or next) this past summer. I have heard anything from "it was voted down almost unanimously" to "it was about 60/40" to "all the big schools wanted it, none of the small schools did"
Do you know which is the closest to the truth? Do you know how it was proposed to the schools? Was it just, "do you want a third official for varsity games for the same fee?" or was it along the lines of "1 crew of 3 officials works JV/V double-header for just an overall small increase in fee?"
If the state is so in control of fees and 2 or 3 man, why aren't they more proactive in getting 3 officials for at least varsity games?
If the school is allowed to use non-licensed officials for F/S, why do they get paid the same for JV?
Sorry for a million questions, and maybe this forum isn't the best place to continue this discussion. If you want you can PM me or just reply here, or let me know and I can track you down through email.

Camron Rust

LocDog249 wrote
I've been told by several officials that the schools voted down 3 man (not sure if it would have taken effect this season or next) this past summer. I have heard anything from "it was voted down almost unanimously" to "it was about 60/40" to "all the big schools wanted it, none of the small schools did"
Do you know which is the closest to the truth? Do you know how it was proposed to the schools? Was it just, "do you want a third official for varsity games for the same fee?" or was it along the lines of "1 crew of 3 officials works JV/V double-header for just an overall small increase in fee?"
If the state is so in control of fees and 2 or 3 man, why aren't they more proactive in getting 3 officials for at least varsity games?
If the school is allowed to use non-licensed officials for F/S, why do they get paid the same for JV?
Sorry for a million questions, and maybe this forum isn't the best place to continue this discussion. If you want you can PM me or just reply here, or let me know and I can track you down through email.

NP will the questions. You're welcome to email me...all my contact info is on the PBOA roster. I'll just email you my reply to this.

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