Touchback/Safety penalty

Welpe

michrefdh wrote
c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone;

Which is exactly what we have here. The rules 10-4-6 and 10-4-7 simply help define the basic spot for very specific plays.

In this situation, Team B is now considered the offense because they are in possession of the ball. The offense committed the foul and it is enforced from the endzone, which is a safety.

ppaltice

There is a case that is similar that involves momentum.

CASE 8.5.2, Situation F part (d).

B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety.

So, even though the basic spot is not in the end zone, the foul, which is behind the basic spot is in the end zone resulting in a safety.

I think michrefdh needs to resolve the difference between offense/defense and Team A/B, and the difference between basic spot and spot of penalty enforcement.

michrefdh

ppaltice wrote
There is a case that is similar that involves momentum.

CASE 8.5.2, Situation F part (d).

B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety.

So, even though the basic spot is not in the end zone, the foul, which is behind the basic spot is in the end zone resulting in a safety.

I think michrefdh needs to resolve the difference between offense/defense and Team A/B, and the difference between basic spot and spot of penalty enforcement.

Still I see a conflict with this rule.

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

The example above is intercepted in the field of play. Still no case here involving the fact that the initial force putting the ball in the endzone was A. B whether on defense or now offense, never had possession outside of the endzone and they didn't apply the force, so if the ball becomes dead as above in B's possession, shouldn't it still be a touchback?

VALJ

Mich - you're right, the casebook doesn't cover this exactly. But, you've also got a classic all-but-one enforcement here.

10-4, article 6: The basic spot is the 20 yard line for ouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

All fouls but one are enforced from the basic spot. That one foul is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, which are enforced from the spot of the foul. That's exactly what we have here, so the foul is enforced from the spot of the illegal forward pass. Since that spot's in the EZ, we've got a safety.

bigjohn

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone

or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

The penalty is not going to be declined so this part doesn't matter. If the penalty is declined it is a Touchback.

mbyron

michrefdh wrote
Still I see a conflict with this rule.

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

This provision is assuming no foul by B after the COP. No foul, touchback. Foul in the endzone, safety. Easy.

KWH

Guys-

1) He threw an illegal forward pass because it was, a pass after team possession had changed during a down! 7-5-2a

2) It is a safety because A player on offense comitted a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enforcment is from the endzone. 8-5-2c

3) It is NOT a touchback because A forward pass intercepted in B's end zone DID NOT become dead there in B's possession 8-5-3d

bigjohn

So you are saying the coach is right and the WH is wrong?

LOL!!! Blind Hog, I know!

KWH

bigjohn wrote
LOL!!! Blind Hog, I know!

Huh? 😕

michrefdh

Hey thanks for the discussion here.

I see the valid points from both opinions, like I said originally, I'm not saying I am right. Its a situation that I think could use a better case evaluation to clarify this specific situation. I still think that the issue of force is a factor, but thanks for the discussion. 4 more weeks!!!!

Welpe

Force is not a factor here because it doesn't matter who put the ball in the endzone. Team B screwed up by committing a foul in the end zone and this foul is enforced under all but one. This foul is the "but one", which is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot. That foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. The spot of the foul in this play is Team B's own endzone and it will be enforced from the endzone, resulting in a safety. Force is not a factor in any of this.

This is the same as if Team B intercepts a pass in their own endzone, and the runner returns the ball to, for example, the B25 but a Team B player holds an A player in the endzone. This is also a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, so it is also enforced from the endzone and is a safety.

bigjohn

ART. 3 . . . If the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement
is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance
penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal
incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted)
of having the ball put in play as determined by the action which followed the
catch.

Reffing Rev.

Great discussion...

Our crew of 6 was divided 3-3 on this one. Well actually it was 3-2-1 at first.

The one odd-ball opinion was that the intercepting player abandoned play (much like a scrimmage kick receiver who thinks he signalled fair catch and doesn't run). So he wanted to call it a touchback and then administer a dead ball USC penalty. 1st and 10 at the 10.

3 of us, myself included want to apply that new rule from a couple years ago (I can't remember the number and I don't have any books handy) the one previously quoted that says something along the lines of the basic spot is the 20 when the team in possession commits a foul in the end zone and the opponents are responsible for the force...etc. Now I know that this foul should be enforced from the spot of the foul since it is behind the basic spot. I was however reluctant to call it a safety since the force which propelled the ball into the end zone (not what caused it to become dead there) was the original legal pass. But I am almost convinced that force does not matter in this play since the ball was 'brought' out of the end zone.

The other 2 were safety from the beginning one of them saying, "He's an idiot and deserves to give up 2 points."

I'm still not quite so sure...if it happened tonight I would call it a safety, and look for the police escort.

michrefdh

Welpe wrote
Force is not a factor here because it doesn't matter who put the ball in the endzone. Team B screwed up by committing a foul in the end zone and this foul is enforced under all but one. This foul is the "but one", which is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot. That foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. The spot of the foul in this play is Team B's own endzone and it will be enforced from the endzone, resulting in a safety. Force is not a factor in any of this.

This is the same as if Team B intercepts a pass in their own endzone, and the runner returns the ball to, for example, the B25 but a Team B player holds an A player in the endzone. This is also a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, so it is also enforced from the endzone and is a safety.

OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

bigjohn

5. A double foul results only when both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer,
during the same live-ball period or if team possession changed during the down and the foul by
the team in final possession was prior to the change or if there were a change of possession and
the team in final possession accepted the penalty for its opponent’s foul.

Dale Smith

michrefdh wrote
OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

If B declines A’s foul, the play results in a safety 2 points for A and B kicks to A. If B accepts A’s foul, it’s a double foul and we have a do over. A’s ball at the previous spot.
Either way because B fouled they loose.

KWH

michrefdh wrote
8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.🙁

What actually happended in your play is the offense, no longer B, (See 2-43-1 & 2-43-2) actually committed a foul in there own endzone. And since, a player on offense committed a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enfocement is from the spot of the foul, 8-5-2c IS the applicable rule, and, the result of your study group play IS a safety.🙂

Again, read Rules 2-43-1 & 2-43-2 and it should help clear the air.

Oh and michrefdh, that is not just an opinion as you previously suggested,
rather, that IS the correct application of NFHS rulies! 😎

I hope this helps.

VALJ

Casebook 10.4.6.B is the closest I can find to this play.

B1 intercepts A's pass in B's EZ, B2 clips A9 at B's 10-yard line after the change of possession. B1 then fumbles in B's EZ and the ball rolls out of the EZ and out of bounds at B's 2 yard line. RULING: The penalty is enforced under the all-but-one principle. The end of the run is the goal line and the basic spot is the 20-yard line. The penalty would be enforced half the distance, fista and 10 got B on the 5 yard line.

It's not quite analagous, since in the casebook play the penalty happened in the field of play, but it reinforces that the foul in this case is enforced as a spot foul under all-but one.

Though actually, I think somebody quoted this rule earlier, and I can't see why this wouldn't apply:

10-5-4: If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

B's become the offensive team by gaining possession of the ball, and committed an illegal forward pass from the EZ. Right?

VALJ

michrefdh wrote
OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

Double foul, replay the down.

10-2-1: It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts the penalty for it's opponent's foul at any time during the down.

If B declines the face mask, their penalty is enforced from the EZ, resulting in a safety. They're not going to do that, so they'll accept A's penalty and offset the fouls.

michrefdh

KWH wrote
michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.🙁

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

« Previous Page Next Page »