Base Touch Responsibility

David M

With R1 and R2 in a two man system who is responsible for the BR touch of first? I don't think it matters but the rule set would be OBR.

mbyron

David M wrote
With R1 and R2 in a two man system who is responsible for the BR touch of first? I don't think it matters but the rule set would be OBR.

BU has all touches and tags at 1B and 2B.

bob jenkins

I agree with mbyron, and will add that PU can help if BU is "busy" with a trouble ball to the outfield at the time BR reaches first.

Maz17

bob jenkins wrote
I agree with mbyron, and will add that PU can help if BU is "busy" with a trouble ball to the outfield at the time BR reaches first.

The BU, in the PBUC Manual, has responsibility for the TAG of R1 and R2, he is also responsible for the touches of R1 of 2nd and always the B/R in this scenario. A plate guy should never help out.

Quid Pro Quo??: What if BU looked at the touch and so did PU... they appeal and you give two different calls.

Even on a trouble ball in this scenario... the farthest you are going is to the edge of the grass dirt line in the infield. On trouble wait for firm a and secure possession and a voluntary release. YOU HAVE TO LOOK TO SEE IF B/R TOUCHES. EVEN IF YOU DO NOT SEE HIM TOUCH. YOU HAVE TO LOOK.

When a manager comes out on you... you say:
BU: "Mike... I looked. Did you see me look?"
Manager: "Yeah I saw you look. And you missed him, missing the base."
BU: "If you where looking at me, how did you see him miss the base?"

If it goes from there, more than likely would be an ejection. But that is the start of the situation handling for this scenario (I.E. JEAPU).

So recap!!!

Tags: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U
Touches: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U H😛U
Fly Ball Outs at Bases: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U (I've got 3rd if he tags) H😛U
Ground ball outs: 1:BU 2: BU 3:BU H😛U
Fair/Foul😛U
Trouble in the "U": BU
Touches of B/R: BU

Hope this helps. I read the Red Book constantly...its my specialty.

bossman72

Maz17 wrote
Quid Pro Quo??: What if BU looked at the touch and so did PU... they appeal and you give two different calls.

This is why you should always pregame that you should make eye contact with your partner as the fielders are going through the motions to set up an appeal so you can say either "me" or "you" to your partner discretely so you're not making double calls.

Maz17

bossman72 wrote
This is why you should always pregame that you should make eye contact with your partner as the fielders are going through the motions to set up an appeal so you can say either "me" or "you" to your partner discretely so you're not making double calls.

Or you should just know your responsibilities! Why pre-game something that does not need to be gone over?

Rich

Maz17 wrote
Or you should just know your responsibilities! Why pre-game something that does not need to be gone over?

Because some of us umpire in the real world, not inside the red book.

socalblue1

Maz17 wrote
The BU, in the PBUC Manual, has responsibility for the TAG of R1 and R2, he is also responsible for the touches of R1 of 2nd and always the B/R in this scenario. A plate guy should never help out.

Quid Pro Quo??: What if BU looked at the touch and so did PU... they appeal and you give two different calls.

Even on a trouble ball in this scenario... the farthest you are going is to the edge of the grass dirt line in the infield. On trouble wait for firm a and secure possession and a voluntary release. YOU HAVE TO LOOK TO SEE IF B/R TOUCHES. EVEN IF YOU DO NOT SEE HIM TOUCH. YOU HAVE TO LOOK.

When a manager comes out on you... you say:
BU: "Mike... I looked. Did you see me look?"
Manager: "Yeah I saw you look. And you missed him, missing the base."
BU: "If you where looking at me, how did you see him miss the base?"

If it goes from there, more than likely would be an ejection. But that is the start of the situation handling for this scenario (I.E. JEAPU).

So recap!!!

Tags: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U
Touches: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U H😛U
Fly Ball Outs at Bases: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U (I've got 3rd if he tags) H😛U
Ground ball outs: 1:BU 2: BU 3:BU H😛U
Fair/Foul😛U
Trouble in the "U": BU
Touches of B/R: BU

Hope this helps. I read the Red Book constantly...its my specialty.

You missed two exceptions:

Trouble ball where BU goes out
R1 or R1/R2 with fly ball down the RF line (Requires pre-game discussion)

SanDiegoSteve

Maz17 wrote
So recap!!!

Tags: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U
Touches: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U H😛U
Fly Ball Outs at Bases: 1:BU 2:BU 3😛U (I've got 3rd if he tags) H😛U
Ground ball outs: 1:BU 2: BU 3:BU H😛U
Fair/Foul😛U
Trouble in the "U": BU
Touches of B/R: BU

With R2 only, doesn't the base umpire have the catch, the tag, and R2 to 3rd? That's how I was taught. Only with R1 and R2 should the PU have 3rd.

Maz17

SanDiegoSteve wrote
With R2 only, doesn't the base umpire have the catch, the tag, and R2 to 3rd? That's how I was taught. Only with R1 and R2 should the PU have 3rd.

Yes. You are right. But that is not the original question. The original scenario had R1 and R2. That was the only responsibilities I addressed.

Maz17

socalblue1 wrote
You missed two exceptions:

Trouble ball where BU goes out
R1 or R1/R2 with fly ball down the RF line (Requires pre-game discussion)

Again... this is only addressing R1 and R2. And I said fair/foul is the plate guy. I did forget to mention if PU is "on the line" he gives up his "help" of I've got 3rd if he tags. But in this original question... BU always has the touch of B/R.

SanDiegoSteve

Maz17 wrote
Yes. You are right. But that is not the original question. The original scenario had R1 and R2. That was the only responsibilities I addressed.

But you listed R3 and 3rd base responsibilities as well, so I felt you missed one.

bob jenkins

Maz17 wrote
Quid Pro Quo??: What if BU looked at the touch and so did PU... they appeal and you give two different calls.

Where did I say give two different calls?

Play: R1, R2. Sinking liner to right center. F9 dives for the ball, it hits his glove, he hits the ground and rolls over, he raises his glove -- but there's no ball in it, he picks the ball up off the ground and fires it into second where BR is safe on a close play.

During the entire "dive ... pick up the ball" action, BR went from 6 feet before first to 1/2 way to second, missing the base.

BU can't look away from F9 during that action.

Are you saying that BU's looking after the fact would appease the coach?

Frankly, I'd rather have PU step up and make the call on the appeal.

In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice, they aren't.

PeteBooth

Maz17 wrote
The BU, in the PBUC Manual, has responsibility for the TAG of R1 and R2, he is also responsible for the touches of R1 of 2nd and always the B/R in this scenario. A plate guy should never help out.

Quid Pro Quo??: What if BU looked at the touch and so did PU... they appeal and you give two different calls.

I am with Bob:

If it's a troubled ball the BU has virtually NO time to see the BR touch first base. His eyes are glued to the fielder to determine if we have a catch / no catch.

The bottom line: there are flaws in the 2 person system meaning there is nothing that is CONCRETE depending upon what happens.

If the coach did come out and want to appeal then you have eye contact with your partner and indicate :I've got it" The coach KNOWS the BU was not looking and sometimes they appeal for the sake of appealing to ascertain if the umpires are indeed watching the runners touch the bases.

Pete Booth

Blue37

bob jenkins wrote
In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice, they aren't.

This is awesome! Can I borrow it?

Maz17

Alright you two... I am telling you, in professional baseball, there is no help from the PU. Trouble ball sinking liner... YOURS. Once firm and secure possession and voluntary release you have to look for the touch. No help is given by the PU. You are right... there are flaws in the two man system. But if a pro or d1 (REAL d1: Big12, 10, PAC, SEC) saw the plate guy stepping on a BU di@&*! like that... he would be dinged so hard. Make as many different claims as you want. Look it up... it is BU responsibility. No matter trouble, not trouble or if the fielder dives and the ball goes in his mouth. Make up what you want... you still have both. Like I said... you may not see him touch, but you still have to look!

SethPDX

Maz17 wrote
Alright you two... I am telling you, in professional baseball, there is no help from the PU. Trouble ball sinking liner... YOURS. Once firm and secure possession and voluntary release you have to look for the touch. No help is given by the PU. You are right... there are flaws in the two man system. But if a pro or d1 (REAL d1: Big12, 10, PAC, SEC) saw the plate guy stepping on a BU di@&*! like that... he would be dinged so hard. Make as many different claims as you want. Look it up... it is BU responsibility. No matter trouble, not trouble or if the fielder dives and the ball goes in his mouth. Make up what you want... you still have both. Like I said... you may not see him touch, but you still have to look!

That's all well and good, but:

(1) how many pro or "real" (:rolleyes🙂 D1 umpires do we have here;

(2) Living in a manual is one thing, being on the field is another. I would rather get the play covered somehow and talk about what to do differently after the game; and

(3) I would not presume to speak for anyone else, but at least one long-time poster here evaluates "real" D1 umpires in his area, so I would be careful about claiming this or that thing as a "ding."

BTW, "real" D1 ball, as well as the (I guess) "not real" D1 conference in which the school in my home city plays, uses 3 umpire CCA mechanics, not the red book.

Rich

SethPDX wrote
That's all well and good, but:

(1) how many pro or "real" (:rolleyes🙂 D1 umpires do we have here;

(2) Living in a manual is one thing, being on the field is another. I would rather get the play covered somehow and talk about what to do differently after the game; and

(3) I would not presume to speak for anyone else, but at least one long-time poster here evaluates "real" D1 umpires in his area, so I would be careful about claiming this or that thing as a "ding."

BTW, "real" D1 ball, as well as the (I guess) "not real" D1 conference in which the school in my home city plays, uses 3 umpire CCA mechanics, not the red book.

I would like to see some of the D1 conference umpires chime in. I know 2 in the real world, I'll ask them when I get a chance.

MrUmpire

SethPDX wrote
That's all well and good, but:

(1) how many pro or "real" (:rolleyes🙂 D1 umpires do we have here;

Well, from what I'm told, we have Maz17 for starters.