Federation play

ronald

Federation rules

One of our umpires had a play in a scrimmage yesterday. Our commissioner gave us the ruling and stated it came from the National Office. I am going to call him back and make sure of what he said before I give you his/their answer. In the meantime, you can give your thoughts.

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

What are you going to do?

youngump

ronald wrote
Federation rules

One of our umpires had a play in a scrimmage yesterday. Our commissioner is the interpreter for Maryland and gave us the ruling and stated it came from the National Office. I am going to call him back and make sure of what he said before I give you his/their answer. In the meantime, you can give your thoughts.

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

What are you going to do?

First, I'm not going to have called time. ;-) If I messed that up I'm going to hope that the catcher happened to get the force out while trying to make that messed up tag and fix the safe call.
If that fails, I'm going to invoke my authority to fix the defense being put in jeopardy by mistake and I'm going to call the batter out for abandoning his attempt to get to first base and nullify the run.
I could see a strong case for having this be an inadvertent call of time resulting in the runner being safe at first, but if the batter wasn't advancing I think I'd go for I put the defense in jeopardy.

[Oh, and I don't think the ruleset matters... but if after the play at the plate they gunned down the runner from 2nd coming into third, then I'd score the run in ASA.]
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AtlUmpSteve

youngump wrote
[Oh, and I don't think the ruleset matters... but if after the play at the plate they gunned down the runner from 2nd coming into third, then I'd score the run in ASA.]

And what would your reasoning be for scoring the run in ASA?

Bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped third strike; every base is a force out.

You should have quit while you were ahead.

ronald

I have not a clue how that picture in my post got there.

Dakota

youngump wrote
... the defense being put in jeopardy by mistake ...

Sticking to Fed...

The rule specifically says "rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team in jeopardy." (10-2-3-m)

What umpire decision was reversed? Calling TIME is not a decision in this context. The case book gives these examples of a reversed decision:
10.2.3-D inadvertent OUT call results in player tagged out.
-F, -G, -H "Ball 4" call reversed with checked swing appeal.

In the OP's case, there is no call that was reversed. Only an untimely TIME.

Besides, I would even argue that the defense was NOT put in jeopardy here.

ronald wrote
...Umpire lets the dust settle, ...

Apparently, the defense had no intention of attempting to put the BR (not batter) out.

youngump

Dakota wrote
Sticking to Fed...

The rule specifically says "rectify any situation in which an umpire?s decision that was reversed has placed either team in jeopardy." (10-2-3-m)

What umpire decision was reversed? Calling TIME is not a decision in this context. The case book gives these examples of a reversed decision:
10.2.3-D inadvertent OUT call results in player tagged out.
-F, -G, -H "Ball 4" call reversed with checked swing appeal.

In the OP's case, there is no call that was reversed. Only an untimely TIME.

Besides, I would even argue that the defense was NOT put in jeopardy here. Apparently, the defense had no intention of attempting to put the BR (not batter) out.

So are you leaning toward the inadvertent time BR safe at first call or the abandonment argument? Or just something I missed?
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youngump

AtlUmpSteve wrote
And what would your reasoning be for scoring the run in ASA?

Bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped third strike; every base is a force out.

You should have quit while you were ahead.

Ummm, yeah, duh. What I meant to say in the parenthetical was a non-force out. Change it to runner tagged after oversliding third.
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MGKBLUE

Not sure that I would have called a time out to clean the plate without first calling the batter out for abandonment.

However the OP, time was called, therefore,

Under Rule 5-2-2-b, a runner may not advance when the ball becomes dead.

Once I noticed the batter still at home plate I would bring the ball live when the pitcher has the ball within the 16 foot circle and I (the umpire) calls and/or signals "Play Ball" and gives a beckoning hand signal (Rule 5-1-4)

Once the ball is live I will call the batter out.

rwest

Can we not get in the slot, put the ball back in play, hold up the pitcher from pitching and then in a loud voice say "Batter, that was a dropped third strike" and then just stand there staring at the batter-runner and wait for someone to do something? I would yell it loud enough so that everyone can hear, including my partner and the pitcher, since she probably has the ball at this time.

CajunNewBlue

MGKBLUE wrote
Not sure that I would have called a time out to clean the plate without first calling the batter out for abandonment.

Not sure that I would call the BR out for "abandonment"....in this play.

Dakota

youngump wrote
So are you leaning toward the inadvertent time BR safe at first call or the abandonment argument? Or just something I missed?

No, actually I did not propose a solution; only pointed out that, in my view, 10-2-3-m is not it.

Actually, what MGKBLUE says is correct. Rule 8-2-4 plus Case Play 8.1.1-A, Ruling (2).

Rule 8
SECTION 2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
ART. 4 . . . The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

DROPPED THIRD STRIKE
8.1.1 SITUATION A: (F.P.) F2 drops the third strike with two outs. B3 starts toward the dugout but F2 does not throw to first. B3 then makes a quick dash to first. RULING: If F2 does not throw to first, there is a chance B3 could reach base safely. However, B3 should be declared out if (1) she entered dead-ball territory; (2) she did not reach the base before the time of the next pitch; or (3) the half inning ended because all infielders left the diamond. (8-2-4)

rwest

Dakota wrote
No, actually I did not propose a solution; only pointed out that, in my view, 10-2-3-m is not it.

Actually, what MGKBLUE says is correct. Rule 8-2-4 plus Case Play 8.1.1-A, Ruling (2).

The BR never entered dead ball territory so 8-2-4 doesn't apply. Case Play 8.1.1-A part 1 also doesn't apply for the same reason, she didn't enter dead ball territory. Part 2 doesn't seem a likely solution either. The umpire called strike three. Are you going to let the pitcher throw another pitch to this batter? The BR was still standing there probably because she either forgot the pitch count or didn't realize a strike was called. She apparently thinks she is still at bat. In fact in every scenario in this case play the batter thinks she is out and forgets she can run to first and then realizes it latter or is trying to fake out the defense. In the OP it appears the batter is just clueless.

IRISHMAFIA

rwest wrote
In the OP it appears the batter is just clueless.

Elsewhere, some would suggest getting that player a mask and indicator.😃

Dakota

rwest wrote
The BR never entered dead ball territory so 8-2-4 doesn't apply. Case Play 8.1.1-A part 1 also doesn't apply for the same reason, she didn't enter dead ball territory. Part 2 doesn't seem a likely solution either. The umpire called strike three. Are you going to let the pitcher throw another pitch to this batter? The BR was still standing there probably because she either forgot the pitch count or didn't realize a strike was called. She apparently thinks she is still at bat. In fact in every scenario in this case play the batter thinks she is out and forgets she can run to first and then realizes it latter or is trying to fake out the defense. In the OP it appears the batter is just clueless.

Ruling 2 does not require the BR to enter DBT. All it says if the is taking TOO long to advance (until "the time of the next pitch"), she can be declared out for failure to advance. How much time do you suggest she be given?

I agree the rule itself says "fails to advance to first base and enters the team area", but the case play says if she just plain never advances, she is out. She does not need to start to advance to become a BR. She is a BR by virtue of the D3K. She just does not advance.

CecilOne

ronald wrote
Federation rules

One of our umpires had a play in a scrimmage yesterday. Our commissioner is the interpreter for Maryland and gave us the ruling and stated it came from the National Office. I am going to call him back and make sure of what he said before I give you his/their answer. In the meantime, you can give your thoughts.

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

What are you going to do?

Probably nothing until one team or the other reacts (except shoot myself for calling time).
However, I agree with Tom on the case play item #2 meaning until it is time for the next pitch, even if another batter has not appeared.

In the OP, it seems the batter thought it was a steal of HP and did not register that it was strike 3, DMB. 🙄

rwest

Dakota wrote
Ruling 2 does not require the BR to enter DBT. All it says if the is taking TOO long to advance (until "the time of the next pitch"), she can be declared out for failure to advance. How much time do you suggest she be given?

I agree the rule itself says "fails to advance to first base and enters the team area", but the case play says if she just plain never advances, she is out. She does not need to start to advance to become a BR. She is a BR by virtue of the D3K. She just does not advance.

The phrase "The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area" applies to everything that follows. The case play does not say if she doesn't advance she is out. She did advance but after a delay. The case play is giving us a time frame for which she can advance. If she is still walking to the dugout when the first pitch is thrown to the next batter then you call her out. She can't advance at that time. If the infielders have left the field of play before she advances, it is too late as well. In this situation she obviously thinks her at bat isn't over. She hasn't entered the team area. The next batter hasn't stepped into the batter's box, so there is no next pitch to consider. The infielders haven't left the field yet. At least the OP didn't mention that they did. So, the case play is not on point.

Dakota

rwest wrote
The phrase "The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area" applies to everything that follows. The case play does not say if she doesn't advance she is out. She did advance but after a delay. The case play is giving us a time frame for which she can advance. If she is still walking to the dugout when the first pitch is thrown to the next batter then you call her out. She can't advance at that time. If the infielders have left the field of play before she advances, it is too late as well. In this situation she obviously thinks her at bat isn't over. She hasn't entered the team area. The next batter hasn't stepped into the batter's box, so there is no next pitch to consider. The infielders haven't left the field yet. At least the OP didn't mention that they did. So, the case play is not on point.

I'm just taking the case play at face value. Did she or did she not reach the base before the time of the next pitch? She did not.

Whether or not she is aware she is a BR is not the issue. She has coaches right? What were they doing during the play at home? Everyone was apparently clueless, including (unfortunately) the umpire (since he called TIME). The case play gives a ruling here, and rather than continue the comedy, I say take it. BR out, no run scores.

rwest

CecilOne wrote
Probably nothing until one team or the other reacts (except shoot myself for calling time).
However, I agree with Tom on the case play item #2 meaning until it is time for the next pitch, even if another batter has not appeared.

In the OP, it seems the batter thought it was a steal of HP and did not register that it was strike 3, DMB. :rolleyes:

First of all the batter has 10 seconds to get into the batters box. So, that time will expire before the time the pitcher has to pitch will. The on deck batter may not know she is due up anyway since the BR is clueless. So who are you going to put in the batter's box? The BR or the on deck batter? You just called strike three on the BR. It was a dropped third strike but she didn't run. You can't get her out on rule 8-2 because none of the scenarios apply yet. You can't get to the next pitch until you have a batter in the box. So, again which batter are you going to call up to bat? If you put the BR in the box and then tell the pitcher to pitch, you can then call her out. But then explain to the coach why you let a batter who already had three strikes on her in the box. You can't call the On deck batter up to bat unless you do something with the BR. You can't call her out because she has not been put out.

I still say put the ball in play, hold up the pitcher, and tell everyone that I have a dropped third strike and watch what happens.

Is there any rule that specifically says that a runner who fails to advance to a base is out? I don't have my rule book handy. I don't mean a rule that we interpret that way. But a clear rule that says failure to advance is an out.

rwest

Dakota wrote
I'm just taking the case play at face value. Did she or did she not reach the base before the time of the next pitch? She did not.

Whether or not she is aware she is a BR is not the issue. She has coaches right? What were they doing during the play at home? Everyone was apparently clueless, including (unfortunately) the umpire (since he called TIME). The case play gives a ruling here, and rather than continue the comedy, I say take it. BR out, no run scores.

The case play doesn't say there was a next pitch. It just gives us the time frame in which the BR can advance to first base. In the OP none of this applies. There was no next pitch. The BR did not enter the team area. The infielders did not leave the field of play. How are you going to get the next pitch in the OP?

Dakota

rwest wrote
The case play doesn't say there was a next pitch. It just gives us the time frame in which the BR can advance to first base. In the OP none of this applies. There was no next pitch. The BR did not enter the team area. The infielders did not leave the field of play. How are you going to get the next pitch in the OP?

It's what was said by MGKBLUE. F1 has the ball in the circle. Signal the ball live. BR does not advance. Rule BR out. If you want to wait a few to see what the BR does, fine. But I wouldn't wait too long. As I said, both teams have coaches.

In ASA, there is no support for doing much of anything except signaling the ball live, and waiting it out.