Translation issues

dvasques

Hello, everybody,

as some might remember, I'm from Brazil and I'm in the process of translating the NCAA rules to portuguese for use in the country.
Right now I'm on the rule 6 and I just found an issue that I'd like to clarify so I don't make the wrong interpretation.

Rule 6-1-3-a-3 says

a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after:

3. It touches any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B's restraining line.

I understand that has no effect over an onside kick try since Team A becomes eligible to receive the kick after it has crossed Team B's restraining line. But Rule 6-1-2-g says

No Team A player may block an opponent until Team A is eligible to touch a free-kicked ball.

Does that really means that on an onside kick try, Team A players have to wait for the ball to cross the line so they can block Team B and attempt a recovery of the kick?

I'll be posting more questions as I have them on the translation process.
Thanks for the help

Robert Goodman

dvasques wrote
Hello, everybody,

as some might remember, I'm from Brazil and I'm in the process of translating the NCAA rules to portuguese for use in the country.
Right now I'm on the rule 6 and I just found an issue that I'd like to clarify so I don't make the wrong interpretation.

Rule 6-1-3-a-3 says

a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after:

3. It touches any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B's restraining line.

I understand that has no effect over an onside kick try since Team A becomes eligible to receive the kick after it has crossed Team B's restraining line. But Rule 6-1-2-g says

No Team A player may block an opponent until Team A is eligible to touch a free-kicked ball.

Does that really means that on an onside kick try, Team A players have to wait for the ball to cross the line so they can block Team B and attempt a recovery of the kick?

Remember that there's another way for team A to become eligible to touch the free kicked ball: first touching of the ball by B, regardless of where.

dvasques

yes, but that still doesn't clear what I thought was the rule.
I thought that once the ball touched the ground (right after the kick) every player would be eligible to touch the ball and therefore Team A would be able to block Team B.

I know... the ball touching the ground wouldn't make Team A eligible to recover the kick, but I thought it would at least allow them to block Team B.

Am I wrong on this?

dvasques

although I have had an insight while translating the Fair Catch rules, I'd still love for someone to clarify my doubts on my previous posts.

But I have now realized that the tactics of free kicking the ball into the ground so it can bunce up in the air on onside kicks might have to do with taking away the option of a Team B fair catch

Forksref

The eligibility of a team A player to touch or recover the free kick has nothing to do with blocking an opponent from getting to the ball.

Team A players could block B players and interfere with their getting the ball until it has gone 10 yds. wherein the A players could then recover it. (after it has touched the ground AND gone 10 yds.)

Sonofanump

dvasques wrote
No Team A player may block an opponent until Team A is eligible to touch a free-kicked ball.

Does that really means that on an onside kick try, Team A players have to wait for the ball to cross the line so they can block Team B and attempt a recovery of the kick?

Yes it does. If you are working 7 man, you should each have a man or two that you are focusing on to make sure they don't get blocked early.

Forksref

Sonofanump wrote
Yes it does.

Rule reference?

dvasques

Forksref wrote
The eligibility of a team A player to touch or recover the free kick has nothing to do with blocking an opponent from getting to the ball.

Team A players could block B players and interfere with their getting the ball until it has gone 10 yds. wherein the A players could then recover it. (after it has touched the ground AND gone 10 yds.)

The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

Forksref

dvasques wrote
The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

I don't know where you are getting your rule citations because there is no 6-1-3a or 6-1-2g.

If you look at 6-5-6, it starts out by saying "While any free kick is in FLIGHT in or beyond the neutral zone..., K shall not: a. Touch the ball or R unless blocked into the ball or R, or to ward off a blocker; or b. Obstruct R's path to the ball. (This is the section on kick catching interference.)

Thus, if the ball is kicked on the ground, these restrictions do not apply and K players can block R players.

Welpe

Forksref wrote
I don't know where you are getting your rule citations because there is no 6-1-3a or 6-1-2g.

dvasques wrote
Hello, everybody,

I'm from Brazil and I'm in the process of translating the NCAA rules to portuguese for use in the country.

😉

dvasques

NCAA Rulebook I downloaded from NCAA.org

TXMike

dvasques wrote
The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

The rule references are correct for NCAA.

The only way Team A would be eligible to block Team B before the ball goes 10 yards is if Team B comes forward and touches the ball in that first 10 yards. By doing that they "give permission" to Team A to block them.

Great to hear you are continuing the move to NCAA rules from those NFL ones.

Robert Goodman

One thing I'd have to ask is what dvasques needs to do here. Is your job to translate the NCAA football rule book so you can present it as, "Here is the authentic current NCAA football rule book translated into Portugese."? Or are you operating as a "rules committee of 1", and just doing your own research? That is, do you have to "sell" the product to someone as, "Here is what has been formulated and tested by a large organiz'n for football?" Because if not, if you have nobody to answer to, why not just think it thru (preferably, but not necessarily, in consultation with others) and decide what makes sense for you, without regard to exactly what the existing rule book says?

For 80 years in American football, team B/R has been given opportunity to catch the free kicked ball, so that opp'ty is not to be interfered with. The different codes have slightly different criteria as to when that opportunity exists. In Canadian football there is no such opp'ty, but for over 50 years the receiving team but not the kicking team at a kickoff has been allowed to block before possession of the ball is gained. Why not just use that knowledge and formulate your own criteria?

Robert in the Bronx

ajmc

Just for the record, there does not appear to be any restriction againsts K blocking R before a grounded free kick has traveled past R's free kick line under the NFHS code.

If any free kick is touched by K, before it travels past the R free kick line, it is "first touching" and R will have the option to select possession at that point. (unless R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul, or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down. NF: 6.1.6)

Sonofanump

Forksref wrote
Rule reference?

6-1-2-h & all of 6-1-3a thru c.

What am I missing here?

With_Two_Flakes

Does that really means that on an onside kick try, Team A players have to wait for the ball to cross the line so they can block Team B and attempt a recovery of the kick?

Yes it really does mean that!!

Of course if Team B touch it before 10yds then Team A can recover and also can now legally block

It was a Rule change made in the early 1990's(??) due to one College teams onside kick play. I believe it was Hawaii(??) who had an onside kick play where the kicker would kick the ball and as it bobbled forward the other 10 Team A guys would surround it blocking Team B out of the way until it had gone 10yds when the kicker would fall on it. Usually only a handful of Team B players up front so it was 10 against 2 or 3 and the play was nearly always succesful. This Rule change made that tactic illegal. I'm sure I recall a BigTen official coming over to the UK to our Annual British Clinic back then and explaining the reasoning behind this Rule change.

I actually had this foul happen to my crew yesterday over here in the UK in a British College game and today I read a forum post about it, how wierd is that?
Definitely a Twilight Zone moment ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y )

Judging by the Rules references that Forksref is giving, he is looking at the Fed rulebook, so I guess he missed that dvasques is talking about NCAA Rules.

[deleted]

Robert Goodman wrote
One thing I'd have to ask is what dvasques needs to do here. Is your job to translate the NCAA football rule book so you can present it as, "Here is the authentic current NCAA football rule book translated into Portugese."? Or are you operating as a "rules committee of 1", and just doing your own research? That is, do you have to "sell" the product to someone as, "Here is what has been formulated and tested by a large organiz'n for football?" Because if not, if you have nobody to answer to, why not just think it thru (preferably, but not necessarily, in consultation with others) and decide what makes sense for you, without regard to exactly what the existing rule book says?

For 80 years in American football, team B/R has been given opportunity to catch the free kicked ball, so that opp'ty is not to be interfered with. The different codes have slightly different criteria as to when that opportunity exists. In Canadian football there is no such opp'ty, but for over 50 years the receiving team but not the kicking team at a kickoff has been allowed to block before possession of the ball is gained. Why not just use that knowledge and formulate your own criteria?

Robert in the Bronx

Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.

Robert Goodman

Ref Ump Welsch wrote
Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.

OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.

dvasques

NCAA book, Rule 7-3-4 says:

No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an oponent or official

And Rule 7-3-5 says:

When a Team B player or an official touches a legal forward pass, all players become eligible

Now, I'm coming from NFL rules and, unless I'm mistaken, a Team A eligible player who's gone out of bounds would regain his eligibility once either an official, Team B player or another Team A eligible player touched the ball.

Not like this in the NCAA?

dvasques

Robert Goodman wrote
OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.

Just for the record, what I'm trying to do here in Brasil is implement the rules that are used by IFAF. I've been told by their Head of Officiating that their rules is the NCAA with a few changes. So the first thing I'm doing is translating the NCAA rules first. Then I'll make the IFAF changes.
And later, we will make some more changes for our beach football (that has no pads and no drawns line on the ground). TXMike knows what I'm talking about...

And thanks everyone for the responses. Really helpfull.