Shot Clock Backcourt Violation

Man In Blue

2 person crew.

Off of a maid basket team B is pressing hard, all 10 players are in the backcourt. Trail is watching closely for legal screens, etc. Lead is helping at half court.

The shot clock gets to 24 and the lead calls a 10 second back court violation. Is this correct for lead to make this call? Is it like 3 seconds a responsibility for both officals?

JRutledge

No it is not correct.

For one the time team control was started has nothing to do with when the shot clock starts. You could get to 20, or even 5 have team control was not started (technically, but not likely).

Peace

JugglingReferee

I couldn't imagine it being proper.

How do you know that the shot clock was started correctly? The mechanic is the Trail's count is the official count, correct? Why go against that?

GoodKolbeMan

Obviusly a women's game - clue? "maid basket"

Man In Blue

JRutledge wrote
No it is not correct.

For one the time team control was started has nothing to do with when the shot clock starts. You could get to 20, or even 5 have team control was not started (technically, but not likely).

Peace

You are saying an example would be if the inbound pass was touched by the defense, the shot clock starts but the back court count doesn't start until there is team control?

JRutledge

Man In Blue wrote
You are saying an example would be if the inbound pass was touched by the defense, the shot clock starts but the back court count doesn't start until there is team control?

Yep, or there was no control by the in-bounding team when the ball was touched on the in-bound pass.

Peace

Scrapper1

But (two big "ifs" coming here. . .) IF you know that control was gained immediately and IF you know the shot clock started properly, then when the shot clock shows 24, a violation has occurred. Somebody needs to call it. If the Trail's count is off because he/she is concentrating on the backcourt pressure, the Lead should make the call.

I have no problem with the Lead making the call here.

JRutledge

Scrapper1 wrote
But (two big "ifs" coming here. . .) IF you know that control was gained immediately and IF you know the shot clock started properly, then when the shot clock shows 24, a violation has occurred. Somebody needs to call it. If the Trail's count is off because he/she is concentrating on the backcourt pressure, the Lead should make the call.

I have no problem with the Lead making the call here.

I have a huge problem with the lead calling this. For one the count of the officials is the only thing that matters. No where under common rules but the NBA says the clock is not the judge of this call? The Lead making this call might only know what the clock says, but might not know other factors as to why there is not violation. The someone that needs to call this is only the trail. Would you promote the same thing without a shot clock?

Peace

Man In Blue

The shot clock is what makes this sit interesting.

You could say the same thing for a 3 second violation. The lead is watching the paint and is looking for advantage/ disadvantage. By rule the trail has the right to make a 3 second call.

JRutledge

Man In Blue wrote
The shot clock is what makes this sit interesting.

You could say the same thing for a 3 second violation. The lead is watching the paint and is looking for advantage/ disadvantage. By rule the trail has the right to make a 3 second call.

Three seconds and 10 second back court are two different things. Would you have the lead call a 5 second count that the Trail has started a count near the division line?

Peace

Man In Blue

I might I am kind of a call hog!

There are so many interesting situations and how each of us would handel them.

dbking

shot clock should not start until there is team control. Big rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Team control exists during a throw in in NCAA and does not in NFHS. We do not have shot clock in HS and I assume they use the team control part of the rule. The game clock and shot clock should start independent of each other.

JRutledge

dbking wrote
shot clock should not start until there is team control. Big rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Team control exists during a throw in in NCAA and does not in NFHS. We do not have shot clock in HS and I assume they use the team control part of the rule. The game clock and shot clock should start independent of each other.

Reference please??

Peace

OHBBREF

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court? I presume the trail has the on ball match-up -So if the lead is watching that match-up to and the clock the others could be running amuck.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here, now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

dbking

JRutledge wrote
Reference please??

Peace

NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )
NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

JRutledge

dbking wrote
NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )

So the shot clock starts when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? Not quite.

dbking wrote
NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

Right, but if the "defense" touches the ball, the "offense" is not in team control at that moment now are they?

dbking wrote
nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

The team control foul in NCAA Rules, is to allow or FTs not to be shot and award a team control foul.

BTW, NCAA 9-10 says:

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

dbking wrote
I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

There are no shot clock rules for the NF. That is not an approved rule.

Peace

dbking

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

JRutledge

dbking wrote
The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

I did not say it had to be just the "offensive player that touches" starts the game clock or shot clock. That is your claim. But starting the clock and the starting of the ten second count is not the same thing. And you did not show any rule that suggested the situation was simultaneous.

Peace

All_Heart

Scrapper1 wrote
But (two big "ifs" coming here. . .) IF you know that control was gained immediately and IF you know the shot clock started properly, then when the shot clock shows 24, a violation has occurred.

Doesn't the violation take place when the shot clock shows 25 (IF the 2 items above are present)?9-10...An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.
If you called the violation when the clock shows 24 then 11 seconds have expired. The violation takes place when the count is equal to 10 seconds. This is different from a throw-in. A throw-in violation occurs when the count is greater then 5 seconds (not equal to 5 seconds):4-67-5...A thrower-in shall have five seconds from receiving disposal of the ball to release the throw-in. The throw-in count shall end when the ball is released by the thrower-in so that the ball goes directly into the playing court.
The 3 second rule is the same as the throw-in (> 3 seconds):4-9 Art. 1...A player shall not be permitted to have any part of his or her body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his or her front court.

Scrapper1

All_Heart wrote
Doesn't the violation take place when the shot clock shows 25 (IF the 2 items above are present)?

Yes, but I said 24 because that was the situation in the original post of this thread.