Scrimmage Kick Numbering Exception

MNBlue

Formation like this:

    17     53     64     79     61          47          82
1             3       5 




                  24

#3 and #5 are in the guard/center gap and #24 is in scrimmage kick formation.

Does the exception apply? (I believe it does)

Can the center (#64) direct snap to to #3 or #5 and will the exception apply? (I believe it still does)

My crew is having a discussion and we are looking for other opinions.

Thanks in advance.

waltjp

The exception applies due to the formation, not who the ball is snapped to. This is legal.

Welpe

What Walt said. Plus I would like to just throw out a reminder that 47 is going to be ineligible if there is a shift and he becomes the end of the line or a back.

OverAndBack

Are 3 and 5 on the line in this instance?

Can you legally snap to someone who's not a back? (I don't have my rulebook with me.)

MNBlue

Nope, they were backs.

OverAndBack

So #17 is the one taking advantage of the exception, then, right? He's the fifth guy? What #3 and #5 are doing isn't relevant, is it?

MNBlue

OverAndBack wrote
So #17 is the one taking advantage of the exception, then, right? He's the fifth guy? What #3 and #5 are doing isn't relevant, is it?

Or #47 or #82.

Welpe

Isn't 47 considered to be the one taking advantage of the exception since he is positioned as an interior lineman?

MNBlue

7-2-5b: "At the snap, at least five A players on the line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79."
Exception: "When A shifts into a scrimmage kick formation any A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50-79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)."

I guess you're correct. 🙂

OverAndBack

The ends in this instance are 17 and 82, my bad. So it's 47 who's taking advantage of the exception, as he's the only one of the five guys between the ends who doesn't have a number 50-79.

Which still makes 3 and 5 irrelevant as they're backs and not linemen.

mikesears

MNBlue wrote
Formation like this:
    17     53     64     79     61          47          82
1             3       5 




                  24
#3 and #5 are in the guard/center gap and #24 is in scrimmage kick formation.

Does the exception apply? (I believe it does)

Can the center (#64) direct snap to to #3 or #5 and will the exception apply? (I believe it still does)

My crew is having a discussion and we are looking for other opinions.

Thanks in advance.

I am guessing you are asking if #3 and #5 are in position to receive the snap?

The rule is that there must be a player seven yards deep and in position to receive the long snap with no player in position to receive a "hand-to-hand" snap from between the snappers legs. The formation as shown is a scrimmage kick formation.

refbuz

What happens if they shift from this:

    17     53     64     79     61          47          82
1             3       5 




                  24

to this:

1      17     53     64     79     61          47          
                 3       5                                       82




                     24

Who's looking for what here? Do responsibilities change going from a 5-man game to a 7-man game?

cmathews

we have an illegal formation...live ball 5 yds previous spot

Welpe

cmathews wrote
we have an illegal formation...live ball 5 yds previous spot

I take it you are talking about NCAA rules. What makes this formation illegal in NCAA?

refbuz

Welpe wrote
I take it you are talking about NCAA rules. What makes this formation illegal in NCAA?

Because 47 is using the numbering exception, you cannot shift to make him an eligible receiver once the center has touched, or simulated touching the ball. The center touching the ball is what locks in eligibility on scrimmage kicks. (1-4-2-b)

Is there anything that prevents this shift from being legal on Friday nights?

OverAndBack

There was no shift in the original example, was there?

Mike L

for NFHS, the only thing the shift has done is #17 becomes ineligible by position. #47 remains ineligible due to initial position. So trying to shift around like this can only result in fewer eligible receivers for A.

refbuz

OverAndBack wrote
There was no shift in the original example, was there?

No. Merely bringing a "what-if" to the discussion.

Welpe

Thanks refbuz. I'm just starting to learn NCAA rules (moving to Texas next year) so I am asking questions where I can. 🙂

refbuz

Welpe wrote
Thanks refbuz. I'm just starting to learn NCAA rules (moving to Texas next year) so I am asking questions where I can. 🙂

This is my 1st year in college, its not that bad, I think that enforcements are relatively easier, it just takes more concentration to not kick an enforcement that confuses the 2.

It turns out that we just discussed the rule a couple weeks ago. That is the main reason that I know it.