ms game... college atmospher

fullor30

Chess Ref wrote
Also wanted to reference your previous post also . I do other sports and utilize other forums. Had a coach go off on me over there. Still read that forum but definetly don't put myself out there. Not because I'm all touchy feely like I'm from Oregon or something but got tired of him chasing me around the Net......:rolleyes:

If I understand you correctly you are implying that you should be able to 'bare your soul' here with a modicum of ridicule as most of us here are transparent. I agree. At association meetings I may be reluctant to ask a rules question to avoid looking foolish. Here you can fire away and not take too much heat.

justacoach

Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....

Bearfanmike20 wrote
Yes he was facing the ball handler,

Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then

Bearfanmike20 wrote
he slid over in front of an (already moving -this is immaterial) ball handler

So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

Chess Ref

fullor30 wrote
If I understand you correctly you are implying that you should be able to 'bare your soul' here with a modicum of ridicule as most of us here are transparent. I agree. At association meetings I may be reluctant to ask a rules question to avoid looking foolish. Here you can fire away and not take too much heat.

That is correct. I can kick something, come here, find out how to do it right and it doesn't impact my ratings, schedules etc.

What i really like about here is reading about doing it the right way. Unfortunately I don't get quite as much accurate information
from the vets in my area......

Adam

Bearfanmike20 wrote
Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

I think part of the problem was your use of the word "set." That's fanspeak, and normally indicative of a misunderstanding of the rules. Nothing says he has to be "set." He can even be moving and establish LGP at the same time, as long as he's facing the opponent with both feet on the floor for even a split second.

jmaellis

Bearfanmike20 wrote
. . . . In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated 🙂 ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring:cool: .

kbilla

jmaellis wrote
I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated 🙂 ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring:cool: .

Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

Indianaref

jmaellis wrote
Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

You both were wrong. It's 20 second replacement time, with horn at 15 seconds.

jmaellis

kbilla wrote
Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

I haven't officiated any JH/MS this year yet (youth & 1st year of HS). I don't recall hearing of any of officials in the MS games having any issues.

jmaellis

Indianaref wrote
You both were wrong. It's 20 second replacement time, with horn at 15 seconds.

Please re-read 2nd to the last line of my post. 😉

Bearfanmike20

kbilla wrote
Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

Ya its kind of an implied coaching box. I'm going to be cracking down a little bit from now on cause the assistants were standing and barking a little too so I'm going to be very clear from now on that assistants sit period.

Bearfanmike20

justacoach wrote
Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....

Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then

So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

fullor30

"Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way....."

Coach.......He's 180 from being lucid, as he posted, that's where your frustration started with the description of the play.

Camron Rust

kbilla wrote
I don't believe this is true. What if A1 is dribbling and B1 is running alongside, no LGP...A1 throws a forearm shiver off to the side and knocks B1 into the second row...are you saying that since B1 never established LGP that you are calling a block? Seems to be the same situation in OP, A1 initiated the contact with the elbow, LGP or not I have a PC foul...

LGP is only relevant for a block/charge play. When the contact involves the ball handler using his/her arm or hand, it is NOT a block/charge play. It is either illegal use of hands or a push....all still a player control foul but with no requirement for LGP.

Camron Rust

Bearfanmike20 wrote
Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

Note that if a player is backpeddling or shuffling, it is almost certain that they had both feet on the floor at the same time at some point in time. Try it. It is HARD to get both feet off the floor in either of these types of movements unless you really try. There is no requirement that both feet be "planted" on the floor but merely that they be touching the floor...even if it is only a brief moment.

justacoach

Bearfanmike20 wrote
Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

fullor30

justacoach wrote
He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

Try decaf coach.

What's wrong with a newbie having a middle school schedule?

Texas Aggie

This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot.

Just for clarification terms, "one the floor" doesn't (and I don't think ever has) meant that the player was on the floor when he or she got fouled. It meant the player was fouled before the shot and the resumption of play will be with a throw in. For example, I've used (many years ago) "on the floor" to describe a foul during a pass when the dribbler was airborne.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not defending the phrase. It's completely wrong, and I was broken of this habit, fortunately, early in my career. It's wrong for several reasons, most notably that you may be in the bonus, and you will shoot, but also because "before the shot" is a much more accurate description.

fullor30

Texas Aggie wrote
Just for clarification terms, "one the floor" doesn't (and I don't think ever has) meant that the player was on the floor when he or she got fouled. It meant the player was fouled before the shot and the resumption of play will be with a throw in. For example, I've used (many years ago) "on the floor" to describe a foul during a pass when the dribbler was airborne.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not defending the phrase. It's completely wrong, and I was broken of this habit, fortunately, early in my career. It's wrong for several reasons, most notably that you may be in the bonus, and you will shoot, but also because "before the shot" is a much more accurate description.

See post #8 we agree

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