Touch foul to stop clock

Philz

I was recently doing a Rec league game, NCAA rules when Team A leading got a rebound and a fast break. Player B1 reaches and barely touches the shorts and I mean "barley" with both hands of A1 to try and stop the clock but I dont call it and Team A scores easily on a 3 on 1 break. B1 goes nuts on my no call. I mentioned to him you must make and attempt for the ball. I could have called an intentional foul so I basically gave you break but your soft touch didnt seem to impeed offensive player and I'm not going to penalize them when they had a fast break going. His reply is "were not trying to hurt anyone out here just trying to stop the clock". I said you can make an attempt for the ball without hurting anyone. The next foul by team B was a head tackle on team A. Both benches empty. There was less than a minute left team A up by 9.....I called the game but was vebally abuised all the way to the parking lot. I gave this a lot of thought and one thing I could have done different was warn the team B coach when the game was getting down to the end and it was apparent that they would try and stop the clock with a foul is to make sure his players went for the ball. Any other suggestions?

kbilla

Philz wrote
I was recently doing a Rec league game, NCAA rules when Team A leading got a rebound and a fast break. Player B1 reaches and barely touches the shorts and I mean "barley" with both hands of A1 to try and stop the clock but I dont call it and Team A scores easily on a 3 on 1 break. B1 goes nuts on my no call. I mentioned to him you must make and attempt for the ball. I could have called an intentional foul so I basically gave you break but your soft touch didnt seem to impeed offensive player and I'm not going to penalize them when they had a fast break going. His reply is "were not trying to hurt anyone out here just trying to stop the clock". I said you can make an attempt for the ball without hurting anyone. The next foul by team B was a head tackle on team A. Both benches empty. There was less than a minute left team A up by 9.....I called the game but was vebally abuised all the way to the parking lot. I gave this a lot of thought and one thing I could have done different was warn the team B coach when the game was getting down to the end and it was apparent that they would try and stop the clock with a foul is to make sure his players went for the ball. Any other suggestions?

tough to say without having seen the events leading up to that play. was it very physical prior to that point? seems strange that in a "normal" game without much animosity, that one no call would lead to the "head tackle" you are referring to....again without seeing it, if it was a very physical/confrontational game leading up to that point, i would be very quick to call the intentional foul in that situation...that is the type of situation that usually builds throughout the course of the game and a heavy dose of preventive officiating early on usually helps...sometimes though if they want to fight they are going to fight. the only other thing you could have done is eject everyone who left the bench and everyone who participated, and see if there was anyone left to finish the game. but in a rec league game, in that situation you probably did the right thing...coaches & players shouldn't have to be reminded to "go for the ball", that to me is like reminding them "don't travel".....

Mark Padgett

Philz wrote
Player B1 reaches and barely touches the shorts and I mean "barley"

If you really meant "barley touches the shorts", why did you first say "barely"? Or, did you mean he "barely touched the barley", which would definitely be illegal use of hands (except, perhaps, in a Minneapolis airport mens room). 😀

Philz

Kbilla...I'm not sure when the rule started to be strickly inforced but it seems like not to long ago it was common practice for the defense to just touch or grab the offense to draw a foul to stop the clock and nobody said anything. Not so anymore and I dont think most people...esp in Rec ball know that. As for that game itself there wasnt any indication of any trouble earlier but again as in (adult) Rec ball you have your no class few that stir things up.

bob jenkins

Mark Padgett wrote
If you really meant "barley touches the shorts", why did you first say "barely"? Or, did you mean he "barely touched the barley", which would definitely be illegal use of hands (except, perhaps, in a Minneapolis airport mens room). 😃

These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

Vinski

I hear what your saying Philz. I had a similar situation in a woman’s rec league game. About 20 seconds left in the game with A leading by a few points. A1 throws-in to A2 from their back court and starts cruising toward front court. Just after A2 gets the ball, B1 lightly throws an arm around her back. Didn’t impede, displace, dislodge or anything. A2 is trying to avoid her but there was a little contact. I don’t call it and A2 scurries-up to their front court. B1 looks back at me and yells “Didn’t you see that”, as if I was a blind idiot. Which, maybe I am, but that’s beside the point. Now, B1, who is all mad about the deal, runs after A2 and grabs her big time. Like a bear hug. I’m thinking, “Oh no”. So I bring out the cross bones for the intentional foul. It gets worse. She starts laying to me about how terrible I am and marches of the floor. So now I call a technical. Well team A ends up shooting 4 free throws and makes about 3 of them so B’s chances of winning are pretty much gone. Ever since then I have been paranoid about how to call those situations. I’m not sure I handled it right. I know what B1 was trying to do, but team A wants the clock to roll just as much and team B wants it to stop. If team A makes a strong effort to avoid being fouled shouldn’t that be honored if there is not a “Real foul”? My take has been that you call the fouls the same at the end as you would in the beginning of a game. However, maybe that’s not quite right when it comes to these situations. I’m curios as to what our veterans have to say.

[deleted]

No vet here, but I've heard that we should get the first foul at the end of game situations... it tends to eliminate the second more physical foul & more severe penalties that you & the OP had happen to you.

(especially when dealing with THAT animal)

Snake~eyes

If a player touches another player in an attempt ot stop the clock, call the foul! This is the only time in the game where both sides are happy you called a foul. No one will complain, just call the foul. Game managment. Supervisors go nuts when they a team is trying to foul and officials aren't blowing their whistles. By stopping for teh touch fouls you will not have a hard foul. Just make sure that the defense actually touches the offense. Just my two cents.

Dan_ref

bob jenkins wrote
These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

That's the spirit!

bob jenkins

Snake~eyes wrote
If a player touches another player in an attempt ot stop the clock, call the foul! This is the only time in the game where both sides are happy you called a foul. No one will complain, just call the foul. Game managment. Supervisors go nuts when they a team is trying to foul and officials aren't blowing their whistles. By stopping for teh touch fouls you will not have a hard foul. Just make sure that the defense actually touches the offense. Just my two cents.

I agree if the offense is just standing there waiting to get fouled. I might even agree if the offense is just passing the ball around in a game of "keep away". But, I don't agree if the touch foul occurs while A1 is driving to the basket.

Mark Padgett

bob jenkins wrote
These corny puns have to be ingrained in you at an early age for you to develop this rye sense of humor.

Nevadaref

I know that you said that your rec league was using NCAA rules, but the following from last season's NFHS Points of Emphasis in the back of the rules book is excellent advice. I've put the two key points in red for you.

4. Intentional Fouls. The committee continues to be concerned about how games end. While there has been some improvement in the application of the rule, there is still need for further understanding and enforcement. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.
Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly.
Additionally, in throw-in situations, fouling a player that is not involved in the play in any way (setting a screen, attempting to receive the in-bound pass, etc. ) must be deemed intentional. Far too often, officials do not call fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria.

5. Rules Enforcement and Proper Use of Signals. The committee has seen a movement away from the consistent application of rule enforcement and use of approved mechanics/signals.
A. Rules Enforcement. Officials need to be aware that personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. The rules are written to provide a balance between offense and defense, minimize risks to participants, promote the sound tradition of the game and promote fair play. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules as written negatively impact the basic fundamentals and tenants of the rules. Officials must be consistent in the application of all rules, including:
• Contact – Contact that is not considered a foul early in the game should not be considered a foul late in the game simply because a team "wants" to foul. Conversely, contact that is deemed intentional late in the game should likewise be called intentional early in the game.

rainmaker

Nevadaref wrote
I know that you said that your rec league was using NCAA rules, but the following from last season's NFHS Points of Emphasis in the back of the rules book is excellent advice. I've put the two key points in red for you.

4. Intentional Fouls. The committee continues to be concerned about how games end. While there has been some improvement in the application of the rule, there is still need for further understanding and enforcement. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.
Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly.
Additionally, in throw-in situations, fouling a player that is not involved in the play in any way (setting a screen, attempting to receive the in-bound pass, etc. ) must be deemed intentional. Far too often, officials do not call fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria.

5. Rules Enforcement and Proper Use of Signals. The committee has seen a movement away from the consistent application of rule enforcement and use of approved mechanics/signals.
A. Rules Enforcement. Officials need to be aware that personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. The rules are written to provide a balance between offense and defense, minimize risks to participants, promote the sound tradition of the game and promote fair play. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules as written negatively impact the basic fundamentals and tenants of the rules. Officials must be consistent in the application of all rules, including:
• Contact – Contact that is not considered a foul early in the game should not be considered a foul late in the game simply because a team "wants" to foul. Conversely, contact that is deemed intentional late in the game should likewise be called intentional early in the game.

The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional. If they complain, you tell that it's just the way it's gonna be. If they're fouling to stop the clock, and they don't use legitimate means, it's an intention. I"d say barely touching the shorts falls into that category.

Scrapper1

rainmaker wrote
The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional.

I'm not sure that's the point, to be honest. Would that play have been a foul -- or an intentional foul -- in the first quarter? I doubt it. Merely brushing the shorts is never a foul, unless the offense is just standing there, waiting to take the foul.

I think the point is, call what's there. If there's contact during a regular "basketball play" that impedes the offensive player, it's a common foul. If not, it's nothing. If the defender comes back and mugs somebody or grabs and pulls the jersey, it's an intentional foul.

I can't envision a case where I'd call a foul for barely touching a player's shorts (unless, as I said, the offensive player was simply waiting to be fouled).

mick

Dan_ref wrote
That's the spirit!

The player had some hops.

BillyMac

This is part of my early season, or rookie partner, pregame conference:

Last Two Minutes

Near the end of the game, be aware of coaches calling time-outs and be sure to inform them after they have used all their time outs.

We’re not calling anything in the last two minutes if we haven’t already called it earlier in the game, unless it’s so blatant that it can’t be ignored. We don’t want our first illegal screen to be called with 30 seconds left in the game; but if the illegal screen puts a player into the first row of the bleachers, then we have to call it.

Let’s not put the whistles away in the last two minutes: That wouldn’t be consistent with the way we’ve been calling the game. If the game dictates it, let the players win or lose the game at the line. We don’t want to be the ones who decide the game by ignoring obvious fouls just to get the game over.

End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

Nevadaref

rainmaker wrote
The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional. If they complain, you tell that it's just the way it's gonna be. If they're fouling to stop the clock, and they don't use legitimate means, it's an intention. I"d say barely touching the shorts falls into that category.

No, my point was exactly the opposite. If he would not have called that light touch on the shorts a foul in the first quarter and would have instead allowed the team to have a 3 on 1 fastbreak, then he should also ignore the contact in the final minutes of the game.

Do not reward a team for doing something illegal.

bob jenkins

mick wrote
The player had some hops.

If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

Back In The Saddle

Philz,

Rainmaker's response aside, I think you have heard the correct answer. I would certainly not call that a foul. But I would question whether or not there had been anything else in the game that led to the "head tackle." That's a pretty big leap, even for wreck ball.

Being wreck ball, the teams probably know each other and there may have been bad blood already. That happens. And wreck leagues are notorious for ***holes whose basic game philosophy includes the notion of "I'll show them!"

As I've matured as an official, I can now look back at games where trouble errupted and can usually identify places where I didn't recognize something was brewing and nip it in the bud. Normally, at least in men's ball, even if somebody does something stupid or outrageous, if it gets called right away, the "victim" will usually let it go. But if "things" don't get called, frustration starts to build. Even if it appears that two guys are going at each other pretty much equally, and nobody is gaining an advantage, you probably have frustration building on at least one person's part. You need to set the accepted level of physicality, not the players. I knew that I was on the right track when I started calling some fouls early just to clean up play, and the guy getting fouled would thank me. He hadn't necessarily shown that he was unhappy with what had been going on at the time, but his response made it clear that he was.

Just my $0.02

Back In The Saddle

bob jenkins wrote
If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

Just keep milking it, will you?