ASA sneaky stealing

MarkPSkins

ASA Fastpitch. I was thinking about this after seeing this play in MLB the other night on TV. Say R1 is on first base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle and she is just standing there behind the pitcher's plate. The F6 and F4 are kind of not paying attention and the R1 just breaks off the bag to 2nd and beat the F6 and F4 to the bag. Is this legal? Time out has never been called.

AtlUmpSteve

MarkPSkins wrote
ASA Fastpitch. I was thinking about this after seeing this play in MLB the other night on TV. Say R1 is on first base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle and she is just standing there behind the pitcher's plate. The F6 and F4 are kind of not paying attention and the R1 just breaks off the bag to 2nd and beat the F6 and F4 to the bag. Is this legal? Time out has never been called.

Legal? Yes. An effective play? No.

If the pitcher has the ball in the circle, as soon as R1 leaves the base, R1 is out on the Look-Back Rule. Time wouldn't be called, but the LBR is always in affect with the ball in the circle. No reason for F6 or F4 to pay attention.

JEL

MarkPSkins wrote
ASA Fastpitch. I was thinking about this after seeing this play in MLB the other night on TV. Say R1 is on first base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle and she is just standing there behind the pitcher's plate. The F6 and F4 are kind of not paying attention and the R1 just breaks off the bag to 2nd and beat the F6 and F4 to the bag. Is this legal? Time out has never been called.

That was a definite "brain fart" by the defense in that one! Had Escobar (I think it was him) not taken 2B he would have never scored, and tied the game in the top of the ninth. VERY alert baserunning from the kid. Even though that is rare, it can work in little ball because there is no requirement for maintaining base contact.

In fastpitch, once the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, the runner(s) must stay on the base, or be called out. It is automatic. If the pitcher however is OUT of the circle, runners can go.

MarkPSkins

Ah, but doesn't the LBR entitle the runner to advance or retreat as long as they don't stop? I compare it to the base on balls when there is a runner on 3rd base and the runner just keeps going. the only difference here is that the runner was already on first base.

shipwreck

Once the runner stops at a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, if they come off they are out on LBR. Dave

SRW

ASA 8.7.T
The “Look Back” rule will be in effect for all runners when the ball is live, the
batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both feet are on or within the lines.

2. Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

Pretty simple to understand...perhaps if you read page 118, you can better understand the rule.

MarkPSkins

Sorry, I am not an umpire nor in possession of page 118. Which is why I asked this question. I know you guys don't get into the philosphy of the rules but really it seems silly that one can run through the base while the pitcher has the ball in the circle, but you cannot leave from the bag when the ball is in the circle.

Aside:

Pretty simple to understand...perhaps if you read page 118, you can better understand the rule.

But anyways, thanks for your smug and somewhat condesending reply. Because we all know how simple it is to understand the rule book even when you consider that they had to write an entirely separate book (case book) to explain it.

MNBlue

It's the stopping on the base that locks the runner to the base. The running through it on a walk is fine, since the BR didn't 'stop' on the base.

The rule is to prevent the cat and mouse games that you see in baseball. Once the runner stops on the base, she is committed to staying on the base, until an action by F1 releases her. Continuing to move, as in your hypothetical situation, the runner never 'committed' to staying at the base, so she is free to continue to move. Once she stops, she must commit to a base and continue to move toward that base, unless F1 commits an action to release her from that committment.

SRW

MarkPSkins wrote
Sorry, I am not [snip] in possession of page 118.

Call your ASA commissioner and buy a book. It's only $9.95

MarkPSkins wrote
...thanks for your smug and somewhat condesending reply.

You're welcome. It's a public service I provide.

Edited per the advice of a Hooters waitress in law school.

Dakota

You are aware, I assume, that your umpire association has violated the ASA copyright. Buying the CD does not grant the right to re-publish on the internet.

NCASAUmp

Dakota wrote
You are aware, I assume, that your umpire association has violated the ASA copyright. Buying the CD does not grant the right to re-publish on the internet.

I was about to say the same thing. Highly recommended you take that offline.

SRW

Dakota wrote
You are aware, I assume, that your umpire association has violated the ASA copyright. Buying the CD does not grant the right to re-publish on the internet.

I'm sure that if our executive board receives a cease and decist order from ASA's copyright attorney, we'll gladly remove it from our website.

tcblue13

Dakota wrote
You are aware, I assume, that your umpire association has violated the ASA copyright. Buying the CD does not grant the right to re-publish on the internet.

Then the title of this thread is ironically appropriate

Dakota

SRW wrote
I'm sure that if our executive board receives a cease and decist order from ASA's copyright attorney, we'll gladly remove it from our website.

In other words, without this, there is no "prevailing legal authority".

Maybe they missed the part where it says,

All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by
any means without written permission from the publisher.

Odd, since it doesn't say "All of this book may be reporduced unless a written cease and desist is received."

You guys haven't even protected it from download, so you are giving it away to anyone who drops by your web site.

Silly me; I paid for my pdf rule book.

bkbjones

MarkPSkins wrote
But anyways, thanks for your smug and somewhat condesending reply. Because we all know how simple it is to understand the rule book even when you consider that they had to write an entirely separate book (case book) to explain it.

Dear Richard Cranium,
That's not smug nor condesending. Considering that what you are proposing is contrary to both the letter and spirit of the rules, it was damned nice.

IRISHMAFIA

MarkPSkins wrote
Sorry, I am not an umpire nor in possession of page 118. Which is why I asked this question. I know you guys don't get into the philosphy of the rules but really it seems silly that one can run through the base while the pitcher has the ball in the circle, but you cannot leave from the bag when the ball is in the circle.

But anyways, thanks for your smug and somewhat condesending reply. Because we all know how simple it is to understand the rule book even when you consider that they had to write an entirely separate book (case book) to explain it.

Bubba,

Before being as equally condescending as you accuse others, you might want to remember this is an umpire's venue on "officiating.com". Unless you identify yourself as the contrary, many are going to presume you are an umpire.

OTOH, the question should have set off the bells and whistles that you are not a softball umpire, but there are some strange posts from all sorts, including softball umpires, so you just don't know until told.

SRW

An update:

After bringing the potential copyright infringement issue up with our executive board Sunday night, they directed our webmaster to have the pdf and the links to it removed from our website posthaste. He removed them Monday night.