A few situations/questions

M&M Guy

Camron Rust wrote
Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

Camron - I don't know; I'll have to ask next time I see one of them. 😉

Again, I don't really disagree with your assertions, but can you give me a rule or case that states otherwise? If the rule specifically stated "try" only, then once the ball goes below the rim, we could say the 3-pt. try has ended, and now it's just a live ball entering the basket that would be counted as 2. But the rule doesn't say that. Maybe that's the "trade-off" that the rules-makers are allowing - it takes the judgement call away as to whether it is a try or pass, but in exchange it might allow some "crazy-looking" 3-point baskets.

M&M Guy

Old School wrote
Situation one is tricky because we have a pass that was deflected, and then it went in. At best, you can rule it like an alley-oop but only in this case, scored by the defense. What's important to know here is where on the floor was the ball deflected. That is where the shot was placed from, which tells you if it's a 2-point score or a 3-point score.

Rules reference, please?

JRutledge

I am in the purpose and intent group of this discussion. I do not think the intent of this rule was to allow all passes deflected by the defense to be apart of that interpretation. Now if the NF wants to clear this up, they do have the casebook to do so. 😉

Peace

Old School

Camron Rust wrote
A1, throws the ball towards the basket. Instead of going in, it hits the front of the iron. A5 and B5 go up for the rebound. B5, after the ball has rebounded 4 feet off the rim, is the only one to touch the ball and taps it back up and into the basket. By the literal interpretation group, this would be a 3 as the ball was thrown and only a defender touched the ball. Do we really think this is what was desired by the rulesmakers????

The point is, where was the defender when he touched the ball. Inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2 points. No different than instead of B5 hitting it, A5 hit it back in. Where is A5 standing, inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2.

JRutledge

M&M Guy wrote
Rules reference, please?

Why did you even ask?

Peace

Dan_ref

M&M Guy wrote
How would you like to judge whether that last-second heave from half-court that goes in was a try or just a pass to a teammate standing near the basket?

Well, I would love to. That's why we do this, isn't it?

😉

Camron Rust

Mark Dexter wrote
But doesn't a pass imply that the ball was thrown? That's the only requirement for this rule.

When does the ball stop being a thrown ball and take on a new status?

I assert that the ball is no longer a thrown ball when it's direction is substantially changed by a defender or when it clearly will not go in on it's own. See my two examples I just posted to illustrate that very point.

The rules don't actually say but I can be certain that a ball that has rebounded off the front of the rim and is heading directly away from the basket is no longer a thrown ball.

The rule doesn't, as one camp would argue, allow for that...they'd say its a thrown ball until it hits a teammate, floor, or official as the rule, as written, doesn't indicate any other way for the throw to end. As that group interprets the rule, all rebounds (from a throw from behind the arc) that are tapped in by the defense are still a 3.

Camron Rust

Old School wrote
The point is, where was the defender when he touched the ball. Inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2 points. No different than instead of B5 hitting it, A5 hit it back in. Where is A5 standing, inside the 3-pt arc, it can only be 2.

Please, I don't need your help. You're utterly and completely wrong...as usual.

Y2Koach

JRutledge wrote
With all due respect, what the hell is a make up call? This is coach speak more than anything.

And you would be wrong about what most of us would do. First I did not see the play and it is likely the conversation was about other contact and not the contact you claim took place (the effort for the ball could have been where the "foul" was referred to). I know you think the exchange that you heard might be a key to something, but it could have been only part of the story. For one did you hear all the other conversations this official had with this coach? Based on the fact it was not your game and you likely were not watching every minute, it is possible there is more to this situation than you are letting on.

Peace

I was sitting by the scorers table right where the play happened (I was seated there to help the new kid operate the scoreboard). The ref basically admitted seeing the slap on the arm and bump out of bounds but didnt call the foul. It was pretty apparent that he meant that it was a foul, he didnt call the foul, but didnt feel it was fair to give the ball to team B so he was going to give it to team A since it was obvious fouls that caused the play.

Nevadaref

Y2Koach wrote
by the way, whenever possible, any references to where to look in the rulebook would be highly appreciated. thanks

The NFHS has a conflict in its rulings on the first play. Both of these case plays appear in the 2006-07 Case Book. So you have to take your pick until the Federation decides to clarify. Personally, I would award two points if the touch took place after the ball had fallen below the level of the ring, but three if the touch took place while the ball was on the way up or still above the ring level.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Camron Rust

M&M Guy wrote
Camron - I don't know; I'll have to ask next time I see one of them. 😉

Again, I don't really disagree with your assertions, but can you give me a rule or case that states otherwise? If the rule specifically stated "try" only, then once the ball goes below the rim, we could say the 3-pt. try has ended, and now it's just a live ball entering the basket that would be counted as 2. But the rule doesn't say that. Maybe that's the "trade-off" that the rules-makers are allowing - it takes the judgement call away as to whether it is a try or pass, but in exchange it might allow some "crazy-looking" 3-point baskets.

That rule was not written with the consideration of a deflection....a different rule is in place for that. When the two are put together, some common sense must be used otherwise you'll end up with an Old School.

M&M Guy

JRutledge wrote
Why did you even ask?

Peace

Because it's like banging your head on a wall - it feels so good when you stop.

Or, who knows, (s)he might even come up with one. I can't wait to see that.

JRutledge

Y2Koach wrote
I was sitting by the scorers table right where the play happened (I was seated there to help the new kid operate the scoreboard). The ref basically admitted seeing the slap on the arm and bump out of bounds but didnt call the foul. It was pretty apparent that he meant that it was a foul, he didnt call the foul, but didnt feel it was fair to give the ball to team B so he was going to give it to team A since it was obvious fouls that caused the play.

If you have it all figured out, why are you asking us? Seriously then if you understood the entire exchange, the only person you can really say something to is the official that made the call. I know how parts of conversations get turned into other meanings when people are not around the entire time. Unless the officials said that to you, it is very likely there is more to the situation. You do not have to accept my opinion, but you did ask for opinions (keep that in mind). 😉

Peace

Camron Rust

Nevadaref wrote
The NFHS has a conflict in its rulings on the first play. Both of these case plays appear in the 2006-07 Case Book. So you have to take your pick until the Federation decides to clarify. Personally, I would award two points if the touch took place after the ball had fallen below the level of the ring, but three if the touch took place while the ball was on the way up or still above the ring level.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! I didn't have my books here and this (in red) is exacly what I needed....and i agree with your commentary.

A deflection by a defender for a ball that was clearly not going to go in ends the original throw and is only two points!!!!

😀 😀 😀 😀

Also, the orange text mentioned continuing in flight...a ball that makes a 90 degree turn is not continuing in flight, it's a new flight.

Nevadaref

There is a picture of a defensive player deflecting a shot shortly after it is released on the top of page 38 of the 2005-06 Simplified & Illustrated. I believe that it is this type of touching that the NFHS had in mind when writing 5.2.1 Sit C, but I can't say for sure.

M&M Guy

Nevadaref wrote
4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1's three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.[/COLOR]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! 😀

I agree there's a discrepency between the two cases, but it is the difference is between a try and a throw. So, isn't a throw exactly what happened in the OP? How would you explain to A's coach, who would happen to know this ruling, why you are only awarding 2 points?

M&M Guy

Camron Rust wrote
Also, the orange text mentioned continuing in flight...a ball that makes a 90 degree turn is not continuing in flight, it's a new flight.

As some esteemed (read: old) members would ask:

Rules reference, please? 😉

What percentage of turn would constitute a "change of direction" vs. a simple deflection? 75 degress? 45 degrees? 7.238 degrees? It's already a pain in the butt carrying around that air pressure gauge; now do I have to start carrying a protractor?

Old School

I stand corrected, but I'm not so sure I understand the ruling. I certainly don't agree with it but it's not the first time. If the ball was a thrown pass to a teammate, it has no chance of going in, yet deflected by the defense and count it 3, oh boy, I'm not understanding the logic behind that.

Camron Rust

M&M Guy wrote
As some esteemed (read: old) members would ask:

Rules reference, please? 😉

The same one that backs up 4.41.4 SITUATION B as stated above.

M&M Guy wrote
What percentage of turn would constitute a "change of direction" vs. a simple deflection? 75 degress? 45 degrees? 7.238 degrees? It's already a pain in the butt carrying around that air pressure gauge; now do I have to start carrying a protractor?

I think the case makes it pretty clear. Once the ball, as originally thrown, is determined to have no chance of entering the basket (dropped below the rim, thrown away from the rim, never reached the height of the rim and is decending, etc.), any subsequent deflection is a new action....not to be considered part of the original throw...and not eligible for 3 points.

Nevadaref

Camron Rust wrote
I think the case makes it pretty clear. Once the ball, as originally thrown, is determined to have no chance of entering the basket (dropped below the rim, thrown away from the rim, never reached the height of the rim and is decending, etc.), any subsequent deflection is a new action....not to be considered part of the original throw...and not eligible for 3 points.

Now that is basically what I wrote earlier, and in my opinion is much better than the "change of direction" criterion you previously posted. 🙂

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