inadvertant base on balls

archer

Count is 2 2 with bases loaded. Pitcher pitches next pitch and PU awards batter 1st base thinking it is ball 4. Meanwhile runner on 3rd advances home and scores as well as other runners to next base. Coach calls time and has conference with PU explaining that it was only a full count. FU comes in and adds his 2 cents. He makes batter come back to bat and awards the runner on 3rd home and other runners to next base. He says that runners can advance on live ball regardless if error is caused by the umpires...... Is he right?????

Skahtboi

archer wrote
Count is 2 2 with bases loaded. Pitcher pitches next pitch and PU awards batter 1st base thinking it is ball 4. Meanwhile runner on 3rd advances home and scores as well as other runners to next base. Coach calls time and has conference with PU explaining that it was only a full count. FU comes in and adds his 2 cents. He makes batter come back to bat and awards the runner on 3rd home and other runners to next base. He says that runners can advance on live ball regardless if error is caused by the umpires...... Is he right?????

Technically the BU is correct. It is no different than stealing the base. However, since it was the PU's mistake that advanced the runners, I would personally reset everybody with a 3-2 count.

JefferMC

The Umpire is always right.

Except when he makes a mistake. Like forgetting the count. Or worse, applying a rule when it doesn't apply.

I don't think you're going to find a rule to cover this situation, because the rules assume that the umpires are inhumanly perfect. If the umpire called Ball Four and/or indicated (by pointing to 1B or whatever errant signal) the award of 1B, then the defense was told that they couldn't make a play on the advancing runners and the fact that the ball was live is irrelevant until they reached the awarded base.

You just gotta' put them back.

mcrowder

Think of it this way. You're the umpire in this sitch and BR heads to first after you tell her to - the rest of the runners advance - because you essentially told them to. And F2 inadvertently tags R1 before she crosses the plate. Are you going to rule her out once you fix the count? Of course not - and coaches would crucify you if you did.

Awarding the stolen base is equally wrong.

And you can explain it to the offensive coach that way if you need to.

Calling ball 4 erroneously put BOTH sides in jeopardy - erase the jeopardy and put the runners back.

Now ... an aside. What exactly did the umpire do to prompt the batter to go to first? Point? (Yuck). "Take your base." (Equally yuck).

bkbjones

mcrowder wrote
Now ... an aside. What exactly did the umpire do to prompt the batter to go to first? Point? (Yuck). "Take your base." (Equally yuck).

PROBABLY "Ball 4, take your base," point to first AND wave toward the runner on 3rd, waving her home.

I haven't done that, but I have seen it...this past Sunday in fact. If I hadn't been busy eating a dozen donuts I might have puked.

IRISHMAFIA

archer wrote
Count is 2 2 with bases loaded. Pitcher pitches next pitch and PU awards batter 1st base thinking it is ball 4. Meanwhile runner on 3rd advances home and scores as well as other runners to next base. Coach calls time and has conference with PU explaining that it was only a full count. FU comes in and adds his 2 cents. He makes batter come back to bat and awards the runner on 3rd home and other runners to next base. He says that runners can advance on live ball regardless if error is caused by the umpires...... Is he right?????

Depends. Did the batter take off toward 1B without being prompted by the umpire, or did the PU actually indicate is was "ball four" and award the batter 1B?

JefferMC

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Depends. Did the batter take off toward 1B without being prompted by the umpire, or did the PU actually indicate is was "ball four" and award the batter 1B?

OP indicated that the PU "awards batter."

OP wrote
PU awards batter 1st base thinking it is ball 4

If not for that, then sure, defense should pay attention and pick at least one of them off and the advances stand. Kind of like the runs that score when the BR takes off for 1B on dropped third stike with 1B occupied and fewer than 2 out.

Dukat

mcrowder wrote
Point? (Yuck). "Take your base." (Equally yuck).

I always just say Ball but if the batter looks at me and does not go to first I will say "4". What do you all do?

mcrowder

Dukat wrote
I always just say Ball but if the batter looks at me and does not go to first I will say "4". What do you all do?

Usually just ball. And usually if they don't go, I just step back a bit and coaches/fans start yelling at her. If that doesn't happen, double check my count - usually I can remember each pitch - by whatever available means. At young ages, yes ... I occasionally have to say "That's 4, batter." but almost always someone else will do it for you.

BuggBob

"Ball, ball, ball, Ball four." If they stop and look at me I'll repeat, "Ball four."

NCASAUmp

Dukat wrote
I always just say Ball but if the batter looks at me and does not go to first I will say "4". What do you all do?

Just "ball 4," though most of the batters are already halfway out of the box by the time I make the call. 😛

JPRempe

BuggBob wrote
"Ball, ball, ball, Ball four." If they stop and look at me I'll repeat, "Ball four."

I kinda like that one. It may not be "official", but it's simple and it works.

mcrowder

JPRempe wrote
I kinda like that one. It may not be "official", but it's simple and it works.

Sounds like it works ... until you find yourself as PU in the OP. Then you've just told BR to go to first and other runners expect to advance without liability ... and so does the defense. So you would have to put them back.

Just say BALL if possible. Let the rest work itself out. You'll find that you almost never have to do anything more ... and you'll NEVER find yourself as PU in the OP.

Skahtboi

Dukat wrote
I always just say Ball but if the batter looks at me and does not go to first I will say "4". What do you all do?

I just say ball. The rest is the coaches job.

Of course, ball four is the only one where I stand up, take my mask off, and step around from behind the catcher, so that should be a big clue to everyone.

NCASAUmp

Well, considering I only call ASA SP, "ball four" isn't that big of an issue. Worst thing that can happen is they get totally confused and walk to the dugout. Then, I've got an out. 😎

IRISHMAFIA

NCASAUmp wrote
Well, considering I only call ASA SP, "ball four" isn't that big of an issue. Worst thing that can happen is they get totally confused and walk to the dugout. Then, I've got an out. :cool:

Not unless you are playing with stealing. If there is no stealing, the ball is dead which means there is no penalty for entering DBT on a walk (8.2.D.Exception)

pob14

NCASAUmp wrote
Just "ball 4," though most of the batters are already halfway out of the box by the time I make the call. 😛

If the batter's halfway out of the box, I have this tendency to call "Strike!"
😀 <--- indicates that I'm joking

I tend to use the "ball . . . <vacant stare> . . . that's four" system, also.