Fifth foul procedure

Raymond

OKref, you said yourself you weren't ejected, so I would think that you wouldn't have to sit the next two out.

If there is a local rule in place, I'm sure it says "ejection" or "2 direct Technicals" has a penalty of missing 2 games. You weren't ejected and apparently you didn't receive a 2nd direct technical.

And yes, the officials screwed this up. You as a coach should not have to use a stopwatch to get a sub in. The rulebook says warning horn at 20 seconds.

Some officials in the forum thinks it's alright for other officials to kick a rule because it's just a freshman game, I'm not part of that school of thinking. To me that's the same as a coach saying "I shouldn't be confined to the coach's box b/c it's only a freshman game.

JugglingReferee

Issuing a T here is nothing but BS. Table crew/on-court officials messed up. Mechanics are in place for a reason. In this case, the expectation is that we don't require the coach to be aware of when 20s and 30s are up.

JMHO.

MadCityRef

You had to sit after the first one.
Oh, so that's why coaches like to stand all the time, they don't sitting on their brains. 😀 😉

Mountaineer

When I used to coach, I always used my full 30 seconds too. I would get my player ready and talk to him while walking him to the table. I kinda had it down timing wise perfectly. As far as the T goes - it seems a bit hasty. It sounds like younger officials who put the ball down on an oob even though the team is walking across the floor.

AS far as you sitting - you weren't ejected. Usually that is due to an ejection . . . again, since it was a freshman game it's possible the second T won't even be reported. I know of some officials that don't report T's like that . . . 🙄

mplagrow

Scrapper1 wrote
No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

Adam

BadNewsRef wrote
Some officials in the forum thinks it's alright for other officials to kick a rule because it's just a freshman game, I'm not part of that school of thinking. To me that's the same as a coach saying "I shouldn't be confined to the coach's box b/c it's only a freshman game.

For the record, that's not what I was getting at; and I don't think many officials would say it's "okay" to kick a rule at any level. Actually, I can only think of one, and even (s)he requires you at least be consistently wrong.

It's not okay to kick this, but it's to be expected in lower level ball; just like you'd expect them to kick a few back court calls and you might expect them to shoot free throws on a team control foul. It should be a learning experience for the officials involved.

What I'm saying is, the coach was using a legitimate, but risky, tactic. It's risky because he's depending on the entire officiating crew to get the details of this rule correct. In freshman ball, where you're likely to get a few rookie officials who only know about the 30 second limit, the risk is higher.

Now, it sounds like they didn't know it was supposed to be a direct on the coach; or they weren't completely sure enough about the call to eject the coach for it.

OklahomaRef

Scrapper1 wrote
No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

It is my job to try and win whatever I have to do (within the rules). I am trying to advance, just like I did when I was officiating. If you as a coach expect your players to give you everything they have, you have to do the same. When I got the first technical, I did not "lose it" or blow up, I asked a question (yes I was being a smart A$$), and I didn't like the answer (which included that is enough), so I said something else and got the "T". When I got the first T, I sat down, and did not get up again. (Except for T.O.'s) IThe other part of this story is I had these referees three straight days. All three games were very close, and hotly contested. I personally think that having them three days in a row probably led both parties to having their fill of each other. As for why do I care, because I care about my players

OklahomaRef

I do not know if anyone cares but I was not suspended from any games. Also, you may find this interesting. When this happened was in a tournament, we were not playing the host team, but the host coach was there to help "run the gym" whatever that means. When I got the second "T", I turned to him and said, "I get a horn at 20." This guy looked me right in the eye and said that wasn't right. Three days later we go back over there for Varsity, and he tells me that he was right, and I should have been ejected. I cited the rule you guys gave me on here, and after a brief arguement (light hearted), he said I'll prove it's not in there. He gets the book out, I tell him the rule number. It's there plain as day. He apologizes, says he'll write a letter on my behalf if needed. Said all that to say, Thank you to you guys that helped me out.

stmaryrams

Mountaineer wrote
...It sounds like younger officials who put the ball down on an oob even though the team is walking across the floor...

You need to remember the context of putting the ball down. If I have a team that has been holding up the game because of these drawn out time outs, I'm going to give the first horn warning and another after the second. If they still don't break, putting the ball down and starting the count will suggest the urgency of breaking the huddle on time.
There are too many of these lower level coaches that think they get 1:30 on a full time out.

This is also something I address in my pregame talk to the coaches. Team properly equipped, identify coaching box, tell me full or 30, break on the first horn.

When I coached (back in the day) I will never forget the first time it happened to me - and it never happened again.

Nevadaref

OklahomaRef wrote
I am a referee turned coach. Today in a game, one of my players recieved his fifth foul. I was notified and told I had thirty seconds. I waited for the first horn to put my sub in (it was late and I was trying to freeze the shooter). When the horn went off I was assessed a technical. I thought there was supposed to be a warning at 20 seconds, just like a 30 second time out. Can someone please help?

OklahomaRef wrote
I do not know if anyone cares but I was not suspended from any games. Also, you may find this interesting. When this happened was in a tournament, we were not playing the host team, but the host coach was there to help "run the gym" whatever that means. When I got the second "T", I turned to him and said, "I get a horn at 20." This guy looked me right in the eye and said that wasn't right. Three days later we go back over there for Varsity, and he tells me that he was right, and I should have been ejected. I cited the rule you guys gave me on here, and after a brief arguement (light hearted), he said I'll prove it's not in there. He gets the book out, I tell him the rule number. It's there plain as day. He apologizes, says he'll write a letter on my behalf if needed. Said all that to say, Thank you to you guys that helped me out.

Thanks for following up on the outcome. I'm glad that something you learned here helped you. If you have other questions or situations and desire some answers we will be here for you.

As for the original situation, I would add that you should remember that the warning horn at 20 seconds was a fairly recent addition to the NFHS rules as it first appeared in the 2003-04 season.
Furthermore, coaches used to be expected to know how long 30 seconds is as they definitely used to get Ts for not meeting the 30 seconds prior to this rule change. Heck, every coach certainly seems to know how long three seconds is; all he has to do is count that off ten times! 😀

Scrapper1

mplagrow wrote
Am I being too condescending?

I'm not being condescending (talking down to you). I'm simply stating the fact that we're discussing a freshman game. If the issue was missing the first round of your varsity post-season tournament, then I'm with you. But this is a simple rule screw-up by a freshman ref who obviously doesn't know any better. Who cares? The more important issue is the behavior that generated the (admittedly) deserved T. Instead of worrying that he didn't get a horn at 20 seconds, he should be concerned about addressing the behavior. Yes, the ref screwed up. But that's not the primary issue, as far as I'm concerned.

OklahomaRef wrote
It is my job to try and win whatever I have to do (within the rules).

But you didn't do that. You were a wise-@@@ and got whacked. Eliminate that, and there's no second T.

I am trying to advance, just like I did when I was officiating.

I absolutely understand that. I'd be surprised if you weren't. 🙂

If you as a coach expect your players to give you everything they have, you have to do the same.

Agreed, but irrelevant to the situation of being tossed.

As for why do I care, because I care about my players

Your players would've been fine for one game. You probably care more about the game than they do. Again, not being condescending, but this is a freshman game. They would learn just as much from seeing how you serve a one-game suspension that you didn't deserve as they would from hearing you coach for 32 minutes.

Having said all that, I think it's appropriate that you were not punished for a mis-application of the rule. If the powers-that-be said that their hands were tied and you had to serve it, I would have no problem with that, either. But again, I think the larger issue is not the second T, but the first one.

chartrusepengui

Ok, maybe I missed someone else saying this but .......... you are a referee turned coach right?

So, you should already know the procedures, consequences etc.

Ok, so you didn't get a horn at 20 seconds. That does not mean you don't have to have a replacement in by 30 seconds and you already knew that. You obviously also weren't coaching too much you were "freezing" the shooter and had your replacement standing there waiting to send in. Sounds like you kind of "screwed the pooch" on this one playing games.

Do you think that "freezing" the shooter for 30 seconds is any more effective than "freezing" them for 20 seconds especially at a freshman level?

Come on - GET OVER IT! Ya blew it earlier in the game when you already earned one T. As on ex-official you should know where the lines are. Even if the TIMER didn't follow procedure - the official did when he gave you the second T for not having the sub in. Their only screw up as I see it - is you were not ejected and for that - at least in my state - you can be thankful! 🙁

Eastshire

Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

truerookie

Eastshire wrote
Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

Seriously, depends on where they are standing. The kid standing by the coach in the team bench area when the horn sounds WHACK!!. The kid and coach standing at X in front of table horns sounds "let's go 15 coach (former official) I did not get my 20 sec horn don't worry about WHACK!! no difference. Like it was stated before clean up the behavior.

OklahomaRef

truerookie wrote
Seriously, depends on where they are standing. The kid standing by the coach in the team bench area when the horn sounds WHACK!!. The kid and coach standing at X in front of table horns sounds "let's go 15 coach (former official) I did not get my 20 sec horn don't worry about WHACK!! no difference. Like it was stated before clean up the behavior.

I don't fell like I really need to clean up my behavior. I am very respectful to the kids and the officials. When I got the first technical I was trying to kill some momentum for them, and build some for us. I wasn't irate when I got it, I just basically asked for it. I had plenty of coaches do the same when I was officiating. I never took it as they were out of control or anything like that. The thing is is that after I got the T the opposing team missed both free throws, we forced a turnover and went to the line. It was a huge momentum swing. I remember coaches that made fools of themselves and I'm not going to be like that. However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

Jurassic Referee

Eastshire wrote
Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

Read case book play 10.5.3SitB(c) and you'll get it.

The "T" is reserved for a head coach that doesn't have a sub at the table when the 30-second horn goes.

Jurassic Referee

OklahomaRef wrote
However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. 🙄 Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

fiasco

Jurassic Referee wrote
Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. 🙄 Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

I don't understand why it's "sad." This is a common tactic, from what I've observed. A lot of times a technical foul will get your players all riled up and ready to go back in there and scrap harder. I imagine it's tough as an official to try and judge whether that's the coach's intent or not and how that factors into your decision to call the T.

Scrapper1

fiasco wrote
I don't understand why it's "sad." This is a common tactic, from what I've observed.

It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

fiasco

Scrapper1 wrote
It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

Well put. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I have to say, I'm learning a lot, and it's actually a bit discouraging. Lots of little nuances like this that don't come naturally yet. Thanks for your post, though.

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