Kill Throw-in

wfd21

Had This sit. in 3 person crew, BV, last night. T has throw-in on end line. I am New L. There are numerous subs both sides. C brings in subs. I am counting players. C drops hand. T gives ball to A1. I am still counting players. Throw in released. Ball in air. Clock still stoped. I have 6 players for B team on court. I blow whistle, kill ball before caught, or clock started. B coach realizes 6 players on court pulls closest one to him off. "A" coach wants explanation for whistle. I go over and explain. "A" coach wants to know why I did not let it go and give T to team B. I explained why I killed ball to avoid T. He does not like it. Close game. He wants T given. We go back to "A" throw in with 10 players.
Your thoughts on how I handled situation.

Scrapper1

You're in a tough spot because the ball became live. If you still had doubt about how many players were on the court, you should've whistled before the ball became live; or at least put up your hands for one of your partners to see.

I had the same thing happen during a free throw last week. I had my hand up, but my partner bounced the ball to the free thrower anyway. I blew the whistle and stopped the free throw. In that case, I think I can reasonably say that the ball never became live because I kept my hand up, even if my partner didn't see it.

In your case it's tougher because it's tough to see how you could say the ball wasn't live. I think you did the fair thing, but I don't know if it was the right thing by rule.

Jurassic Referee

Scrapy wrote
In your case it's tougher because it's tough to see how you could say the ball wasn't live. I think you did the fair thing, but I don't know if it was the right thing by rule.

Sometimes fair is better than right, Scrapy.

The C needs his knuckles rapped on this one. And maybe the T too. Everybody shoulda been counting. But, as in the immortal words of Anne Boleyn- "Shiznit happens!"

Of course, if the whistle hadn't blown before the throw-in was caught, it's a different situation. Can't really fix that one.

Official99

Remember too that it is part of our responsibility as officials to ensure that there are the correct number of players. The reason the T is in the book in this case is in the event a player wasn't beckoned onto the court and came on anyway.

I was always taught that it is the responsibility of the officials to ensure no team has an advantage or disadvantage (within the rules) of more than 5 players or less than 5 players.

I think you handled it correctly and the coach is going to have to live with the decision.

emtp

You did the right thing, another thing to tell the coach who wanted the T is that you would have done the same for his team. This might be redundent but to mention this in pregame that when lots of subs are coming in that all 3 officials count the players.

Adam

Official99 wrote
Remember too that it is part of our responsibility as officials to ensure that there are the correct number of players. The reason the T is in the book in this case is in the event a player wasn't beckoned onto the court and came on anyway.

Wrong. There is a T in the book for this play (subs coming in during play). It's for a sub entering unbeckoned.

Official99 wrote
I was always taught that it is the responsibility of the officials to ensure no team has an advantage or disadvantage (within the rules) of more than 5 players or less than 5 players.

I think you handled it correctly and the coach is going to have to live with the decision.

This is not our responsibility. The T is there because it's the coaches' responsibility. As a courtesy, we will try to hold the ball up to allow subs to enter and depart as required.

Official99

Snaqwells wrote
Wrong. There is a T in the book for this play (subs coming in during play). It's for a sub entering unbeckoned.

Isn't that what I said?

I never mentioned during play or not during play... all I mentioned was there is a T for subs coming in unbeckoned....

Adam

They can't call a T for a sub unbeckoned on the OP, though. The subs were beckoned. I thought you were saying the T for 6 players is in the book so we can address an unbeckoned sub. The unbeckoned sub isn't relevant to the OP, though. I'm just confused why it was mentioned in this context.

bigdogrunnin

wfd21 wrote
T has throw-in on end line. I am New L. There are numerous subs both sides. C brings in subs. I am counting players. C drops hand. T gives ball to A1. I am still counting players. Throw in released. Ball in air. Clock still stoped. I have 6 players for B team on court. I blow whistle, kill ball before caught, or clock started.

Seems to me like you did the right thing. If situations were reversed, the coach would want you to do the same thing. Personally, I would have done the same thing, and then I would come together with my partners at the next possible time and let them know we dropped the ball and we need to be more attentive.

wfd21

Thanks for the input. I felt good about the way I handled it. We had a good post game discussion on it. I agree it is our responsibility to be sure we get the right number of subs on and off the court. If all three of us had made eye contact prior to putting ball in play it would have helped.

Mountaineer

I am assuming in pregame the R said something about making eye contact before putting the ball in play. I personally would think it was your partner's fault for putting the ball in play without checking with both of his partners. If I had caught it like you did - I think I would have reacted the same way - kill it and correct it and move on.

Nevadaref

wfd21 wrote
Had This sit. in 3 person crew, BV, last night. T has throw-in on end line. I am New L. There are numerous subs both sides. C brings in subs. I am counting players. C drops hand. T gives ball to A1. I am still counting players. Throw in released. Ball in air. Clock still stoped. I have 6 players for B team on court. I blow whistle, kill ball before caught, or clock started. B coach realizes 6 players on court pulls closest one to him off. "A" coach wants explanation for whistle. I go over and explain. "A" coach wants to know why I did not let it go and give T to team B. I explained why I killed ball to avoid T. He does not like it. Close game. He wants T given. We go back to "A" throw in with 10 players.
Your thoughts on how I handled situation.

I think that the coach of Team A is right. You gave Team B a free pass. You probably overstepped in your capacity as an official. I don't think that it is your job to save Team B a T.

Certainly not the popular opinion, but that's my take on it.

emtp

I feel that there are rules, then there is application of the rules. Why penilize someone for something that we (official's) should have taken care of when you had an oppertunity to fix it.

Jurassic Referee

emtp wrote
Why penilize someone for something that we (official's) should have taken care of when you had an oppertunity to fix it.

Well, probably because it's the head coach's responsibility to have the correct number of players on the floor, not the officials. Yes, we try to fix the coach's screw-ups if we can, but if we can't, oh well. It's the coach's fault ultimately, not ours, and if play starts with 6 on the floor, we gotta call it.

In the case above, the throw-in never ended- so we have a little justification for getting the extra player off the floor. If the clock had have started though, no way can we fix it then.

Nevadaref

Jurassic Referee wrote
Well, probably because it's the head coach's responsibility to have the correct number of players on the floor, not the officials. Yes, we try to fix the coach's screw-ups if we can, but if we can't, oh well. It's the coach's fault ultimately, not ours, and if play starts with 6 on the floor, we gotta call it.

Yep, I agree.

Jurassic Referee wrote
In the case above, the throw-in never ended- so we have a little justification for getting the extra player off the floor. If the clock had have started though, no way can we fix it then.

I just don't concur with the logical basis of this sentiment.

What is the fixation with the clock starting? Why is that being considered controlling? Why isn't the case being made that the point of no return is when the ball becomes live? Isn't that what determines the start of play?

Consider the following play:
The inbounder throws the ball across the court and it goes OOB untouched for a violation, but during this time an official notices that the defensive team has six people on the court.

Would anyone really contend that this isn't a T since the clock never started? The fact that a turnover occurred obviously means that the defending team gained an advantage. They would now be getting the ball.

What if the team with six on the floor commits a foul before the thrower releases the ball? Do we say that it isn't a problem because the fouler wasn't the sixth man or that the defense didn't gain an advantage?

How about if we say that the sixth kid wasn't "participating" since he was just standing there or because he was in the process of leaving the court?

There are so many was to twist this, but none of them can distort the fact that while the refs screwed up, one team did indeed break the rules and this is a technical foul. Just call it and move on with the game.

Jurassic Referee

Nevadaref wrote
There are so many was to twist this, but none of them can distort the fact that while the refs screwed up, one team did indeed break the rules and this is a technical foul. Just call it and move on with the game.

You agreed with me above that it was the coach's fault, not the officials. Now you're saying that the officials screwed up. Um....?:confused:

You think a "T" should be called in this particular situation. I disagree. Shrug.

Nevadaref

I do agree that ultimate responsibility for this rests with the coach/team. It's their fault for a lack of organization which resulted in them having too many out there, but I also believe that the officials screwed up by putting the ball in play without accurately counting or maybe without counting at all. 😮

We both know that the officials manual mentions the officials seeing five players from each team on the court.

Ray_from_Mi

As the earlier post said, the center official kicked this one by allowing play to continue while there is 6 on the floor. The motto, 'I will be sure....always' should be in the pre-game. When that comes down, there needs to be 10 on the floor. How you handled it was very well indeed. If the score was not close, the coach would have probably thanked you for doing preventative. Overall, you did the best thing while trying to run 'interference' for your brother official.

Rusty Gilbert

I liked how you handled it. I don't think that stopping the play BEFORE the ball was touched in bounds in order to accomplish preventing officiating in this particular situation is beyond the scope of our ability. Obviously it is NOT a correctable error, but it is an avoidable mistake. And I think when we can avoid mistakes (such as too many players on the court) then we should. As officials we are not "accountable" for this mistake (the team ultimately bears responsibility per Rule 10), but I believe this was a good game management move.

Adam

"Technically," the rule was broken as soon as the ball became live. However, I have no problem with stopping play before the throwin ends to prevent a T. Once the throwin ends (violation on A or ball touched anywhere on court after the release), you gotta go with the T, though.
BTW, using the end of the throwin here is completely arbitrary and doesn't really fit the rule. I'm not completely happy with it.