Tip on shot rebound

lukealex

A1 shoots and misses, A2 tips ball toward A3 but the ball goes into the backcourt where A1 recovers the ball. If the tip from A2 to A3 was intenional, directed, or on purpose, could this be considered team control and therefor be a backcourt violation?

Snake~eyes

No team control, a tip is not posession.

Nevadaref

4-12-5 . . . Team control does not exist during a jump ball or the touching of a rebound, but is re-established when a player secures control.

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Jurassic Referee

Nevadaref wrote
4-12-5 . . . Team control does not exist during a jump ball or the touching of a rebound, but is re-established when a player secures control.

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Or....

5-2-5: When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation, only a tap could score.

bob jenkins

lukealex wrote
A1 shoots and misses, A2 tips ball toward A3 but the ball goes into the backcourt where A1 recovers the ball. If the tip from A2 to A3 was intenional, directed, or on purpose, could this be considered team control and therefor be a backcourt violation?

While the other answers are correct (tip <> player control), the rebounder could grasp the ball with one hand and pass it toward A3. This would be player control, and result in a backcourt violation. I thought there was some case play to this effect, but I couldn't find it in a quick search

Jimgolf

Nevadaref wrote
4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Logically, then, if the player is batting the ball toward another player, rather than away from other players as stated above, then the player is in control.

Jurassic Referee

Jimgolf wrote
Logically, then, if the player is batting the ball toward another player, rather than away from other players as stated above, then the player is in control.

Logically, no. The player is not in control. See case book play 6.7COMMENT.

ChuckElias

Jimgolf wrote
Logically, then, if the player is batting the ball toward another player, rather than away from other players as stated above, then the player is in control.

Jim, the important thing is not where the player bats the ball (toward a teammate or away from an opponent). The important thing is that the player either bats or holds the ball. Batting (regardless of the direction of the bat) does not establish player control. Remember that player control is established ONLY by holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Otherwise, no player control.

Jimgolf

ChuckElias wrote
Batting (regardless of the direction of the bat) does not establish player control.

How about when batting the ball to the ground? Doesn't this establish the start of a dribble, hence control?

ChuckElias

Jimgolf wrote
How about when batting the ball to the ground? Doesn't this establish the start of a dribble, hence control?

Nevada already posted this, but I'll throw it up here again:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

Jimgolf

ChuckElias wrote
4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

Then why does the reference specifically say "away from other players"?

If "NOTE 2" makes a distinction, why ignore it?

ChuckElias

Jimgolf wrote
Then why does the reference specifically say "away from other players"?

It means "to keep it away" from other players. It doesn't mean "in a direction opposite" from other players.

When you played "Keep Away" as a kid, did you always throw the ball in a direction that was opposite from the kid who was it? No, you throw it any direction as long as that kid doesn't get the ball. Same thing here. Direction is irrelevant. The point of the note is that the player is batting the ball to keep it away from other players.

You're trying too hard on this one, Jim.

lukealex

Had this happen in a game a couple days ago.

After a shot, ball gets tipped around, no team control. Ball is about to go out of bounds but is saved by A1 who "scoops" the ball to save it just like a bowling ball would be thrown. The ball doesn't touch anybody until A2 retrieves the ball in the backcourt.

Would the scoop be considered control?

bob jenkins

lukealex wrote
Had this happen in a game a couple days ago.

After a shot, ball gets tipped around, no team control. Ball is about to go out of bounds but is saved by A1 who "scoops" the ball to save it just like a bowling ball would be thrown. The ball doesn't touch anybody until A2 retrieves the ball in the backcourt.

Would the scoop be considered control?

Would you have granted A1 a TO if s/he had requested it during the "scoop?"

lukealex

bob jenkins wrote
Would you have granted A1 a TO if s/he had requested it during the "scoop?"

Never thought about it like that, good point. I don't think I would have granted a TO.

Thanks

Mark Padgett

I always thought that when there was no team control, team control was then established when a player establishes player control, which is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Tapping is not holding, scooping (IMO) is holding, pushing a ball downward to the court to start a dribble is dribbling.

This "test" has always worked for me. Comments?

Camron Rust

Mark Padgett wrote
I always thought that when there was no team control, team control was then established when a player establishes player control, which is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Tapping is not holding, scooping (IMO) is holding, pushing a ball downward to the court to start a dribble is dribbling.

This "test" has always worked for me. Comments?

I don't agree that a scoop is necessarily equal to holding the ball. If the player's hand froze in mid-air, would the ball stay or drop. If it is fairly short, I could see it as akin to pushing the ball...not unlike a dribble, but not a dribble. If the scoop is large, I could see it as holding the ball.

Jimgolf

ChuckElias wrote
Nevada already posted this, but I'll throw it up here again:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

ChuckElias wrote
It means "to keep it away" from other players. It doesn't mean "in a direction opposite" from other players.

When you played "Keep Away" as a kid, did you always throw the ball in a direction that was opposite from the kid who was it? No, you throw it any direction as long as that kid doesn't get the ball. Same thing here. Direction is irrelevant. The point of the note is that the player is batting the ball to keep it away from other players.

You're trying too hard on this one, Jim.

What you are in essence saying, is that "when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it" is the same as when he/she bats a rebound toward another player.

Clearly, this is not the case.

All I'm saying is that a player can tap a ball with or without control and an experienced official can tell the difference, and should be able to use his/her own judgment to make the call.

Nevadaref

Jim,
If a player bats the ball toward one of his teammates then isn't he batting it AWAY from opponents (other players)?

Also, a player can certainly bat a ball toward an empty area on the floor to keep it away from opponents (other players) and then go get it. Would you judge that to be a case of player control?

However, here is something that helps your case:

RULE 4, SECTION 31 PASS
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A pass is something done by a player in control right? 🙂

ChuckElias

Jimgolf wrote
What you are in essence saying, is that "when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it" is the same as when he/she bats a rebound toward another player.

Um, no I'm not. I'm saying the direction of the bat (toward or away from an opponent) has no bearing whatsoever on whether it starts a dribble.

All I'm saying is that a player can tap a ball with or without control and an experienced official can tell the difference, and should be able to use his/her own judgment to make the call.

I've read this whole thread and this is the first time I've seen you say that. If that's all you're trying to say, why were you making such a big deal about the direction of the bat? (And in case, I'm still missing your point, a tap is different from a bat. A tap is a try.)