Player control/Blocking foul?

rainmaker

zebraman wrote
Exactly. LGP just gives the defender some additional rights. Those additional rights aren't needed here because B2 has a right to maintain his spot.

You could say that B2 wasn't guarding so LGP doesn't apply. Every player has a right to his or her spot on the floor and the air above it, all the way to the ceiling. PC foul.

RonRef

I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.

rainmaker

RonRef wrote
I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.

Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.

RonRef

rainmaker wrote
Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.

I think if we had 100 guys in a room and showed this play on video it maybe split down the middle 50-50 block/charge!

ChuckElias

RonRef wrote
I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.

Why? 😕

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.

RonRef

ChuckElias wrote
Why? 😕

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Like any block/charge it is tough to comment when we actually don't see the play! If I see the paly I may indeed call it a Charge!

rainmaker

RonRef wrote
I think if we had 100 guys in a room ....

Well, there's your problem right there. You're working with a bunch of good ol' boys. If you are using current up to date refs, there'll be a least a few women, and the group over all will be more likely to call the play correctly.

RonRef

rainmaker wrote
Well, there's your problem right there. You're working with a bunch of good ol' boys. If you are using current up to date refs, there'll be a least a few women, and the group over all will be more likely to call the play correctly.

Rainmaker: That is funny, since I work women's ball I am usually working with one or more female officials. I really have a hard problem with a big "lug" standing under the hoop and giving the foul to the offense (NF it is still by rule a charge). He is not playing defense under the hoop and where is the offensive player supposed to go?

rainmaker

RonRef wrote
Rainmaker: That is funny, since I work women's ball I am usually working with one or more female officials. I really have a hard problem with a big "lug" standing under the hoop and giving the foul to the offense (NF it is still by rule a charge). He is not playing defense under the hoop and where is the offensive player supposed to go?

The offensive player is supposed to go someplace where there isn't another person standing! There's nothing anywhere in the rule book that gives the shooter the right to run up an opponent's back. I sincerely hope you are just yanking some chains, but it doesn't matter. Someone else can take this battle on. I'm going away for the weekend to relax a little and enjoy some beautiful coastal scenery. I hope you enjoy your Jr. Hi basketball season!

RonRef

rainmaker wrote
The offensive player is supposed to go someplace where there isn't another person standing! There's nothing anywhere in the rule book that gives the shooter the right to run up an opponent's back. I sincerely hope you are just yanking some chains, but it doesn't matter. Someone else can take this battle on. I'm going away for the weekend to relax a little and enjoy some beautiful coastal scenery. I hope you enjoy your Jr. Hi basketball season!

You are telling me that there aren't any other officials out there that pass on charges when the defender is right under the basket? Why does everyone need to get personal on this site when someone disagrees with someone else’s "opinion?" By the way I need a partner for my Jr. High game on Saturday, are you open to work with me?

bob jenkins

RonRef wrote
You are telling me that there aren't any other officials out there that pass on charges when the defender is right under the basket?

There are officials who do this, of course. By rule, they are wrong (except under some circumstances in NCAAW and NBA). Almost all officials (including me) ignore some rules, of course.

On the OP, I'd probably have a no-call, depending, of course, on the contact.

Kevzebra

rainmaker wrote
Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.

I agree Rain! Another reason we miss the offensive/block call is that most officials center his/her attention on the offensive player and do not expand his/her vision to include the defensive players. If we all would take a "trail mentality" on the floor (not looking at just A1-B1) and look at the plays that may be coming our way, we would rarely miss these calls!

ChuckElias

RonRef wrote
You are telling me that there aren't any other officials out there that pass on charges when the defender is right under the basket?

No. In real life, most officials would pass (assuming the contact by the shooter is not severe). By rule, it's a player control foul. But you said, it would be a block. Of all the options available to us, the one thing that it isn't, is a block. JMO.

And, by the way, many (if not most) officials outside the WNBA/NBA/NCAAW don't really understand the "under the basket" rule.

Kevzebra

ChuckElias wrote
No. In real life, most officials would pass (assuming the contact by the shooter is not severe). By rule, it's a player control foul. But you said, it would be a block. Of all the options available to us, the one thing that it isn't, is a block. JMO.

And, by the way, many (if not most) officials outside the WNBA/NBA/NCAAW don't really understand the "under the basket" rule.

By rule? So you are telling me that men's college officials will call an offensive when a player is directly under the basket? ::coughcoughcoughchokechokechoke::

In the womens college game (and by the way the BEST officials come from this side) if a player is positioned under the basket, it is a no call or a block. This is a non position.

Dan_ref

ChuckElias wrote
Why? 😕

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Maybe because some tend to view a push in the back on a rebound differently than this particular play, even more so if A1 runs into B1 as he's dunking the ball.

GoodwillRef

Kevzebra wrote
By rule? So you are telling me that men's college officials will call an offensive when a player is directly under the basket? ::coughcoughcoughchokechokechoke::

In the womens college game (and by the way the BEST officials come from this side) if a player is positioned under the basket, it is a no call or a block. This is a non position.

This is not totally correct. If the dribbler comes from the baseline on a drive to the basket and the defense is under the hoop it is then a foul on the offense and other situation it would be a block. It is never a "no call" if there is a train wreck in women's basketball.

Jurassic Referee

RonRef wrote
I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.

Disagree. I think that most officials actually know the rules and would get it right.

Kevzebra

GoodwillRef wrote
This is not totally correct. If the dribbler comes from the baseline on a drive to the basket and the defense is under the hoop it is then a foul on the offense and other situation it would be a block. It is never a "no call" if there is a train wreck in women's basketball.

I was under the assumption we were talking coming from in front of the basket. Sorry for the ommission.

ChuckElias

Kevzebra wrote
By rule? So you are telling me that men's college officials will call an offensive when a player is directly under the basket? ::coughcoughcoughchokechokechoke::

By rule, in the men's game, that would still be a player control foul. Would they call it? Many do not.

Jurassic Referee

ChuckElias wrote
By rule, in the men's game, that would still be a player control foul. Would they call it? Many do not.

But, as you said before, the one thing that it wouldn't be is a block.