Have you an out?

WestMichBlue

ASA Rules: runner sliding into base, tag is applied just prior to foot reaching base. But contact causes the ball to come out of the glove after the tag. The ball does not touch the ground; the fielder regains control of the ball in her glove after the runner's foot touches the base.

Out, Right?

Sit. 2 - after the ball comes lose, it touches the offensive player before the defender regains control. Ball did not touch ground.

Is this a legal catch if the ball goes from defender to offensive player and back to defender without touching the ground?

WMB

NDblue

I have a "safe" call since the defender did not keep control of the ball as the tag was applied. Doesn't matter if the ball touched the ground, control needs to be maintained for me to call an "out".

Sit 2 is still a "safe" call. The ground has no bearing here on a thrown ball. If the defender gets control of the ball before the offensive player touches the bag safely and makes a tag, I have an "out" as long as control is maintained.

SWFLguy

Concur--SAFE--- fielder did not control the ball.

blue

I have a "safe" in both situations. Fielder failed to maintain control of the ball during the tag.

CecilOne

ditto, ditto

Assuming the drop in S1 was part of the tag action and not a subsequent activity. If the fielder had control through the course of the tag and the drop was after the fact, caused by something else, probably out.

Mountaineer

I don't see how you can get an out in either situation. Unless it's the first inning and a team is up by 20 and you are looking for outs. 😛 Seriously, it's not a voluntary release of the catch so you cannot have an out. Safe in both cases.

Andy

Didn't we have a similar discussion not too long ago?

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=23960&highlight=knee

WestMichBlue

Andy wrote
Didn't we have a similar discussion not too long ago?

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=23960&highlight=knee

Similar, but not the same. In that thread we talked about losing possesion of the ball after a tag and the discussion centered about how long the defender had to have the ball after the tag and before losing the ball.

In my case, the defender did not lose the ball; she bobbled the ball and then regained possession in her glove. The tag is made, the ball pops out, and the catcher dives over the runner and catches the ball before it hits the ground. Based on Mike Rowe's position in the previous thread, I believe my call of out is correct.

But then I modified the situation, asking what your call would be if the ball touched the runner before the catcher regained possession of the ball?

Is it like the ball bouncing off the CF's glove into the wall and back into the glove (ala the NCAA World Series thread a year ago)?

Or does Mike's interpretation of tag rules, as explained in the old thread, still hold sway in this case?

WMB

NDblue

WMB,

You still don't have an out. Possession was not maintained when the tag was applied. The ball not touching the ground is not an issue here. The ball "popping" out as the tag was applied shows me that control was not maintained. It's like a 1B bobbling the ball on a force at first. No control = no out.

Mountaineer

I know in NF not only do they have to "hold the ball long enough to prove she has control of the ball" but also that "her release of the ball is voluntary and intentional". Since I am not doing ASA this year I had to go back to last year's rule book (05). It basically uses the same verbage. In the situation - as described - the release of the ball was not "voluntary and intentional". Therefore, you cannot have an out. I went back and read the other thread and the same thing holds true there - if the release is not "voluntary and intentional" it is not a catch (which by rule is the fielder gaining control of a batted, pitched or thrown ball).

Safe!

WestMichBlue

NDblue wrote
WMB,

You still don't have an out. Possession was not maintained when the tag was applied. The ball not touching the ground is not an issue here. The ball "popping" out as the tag was applied shows me that control was not maintained. It's like a 1B bobbling the ball on a force at first. No control = no out.

I disagree. A catch of a batted or fly ball has these control and voluntary release issues. We are not talking about a catch.

A force at any base requires the fielder have possession or control of the ball before the runner touches the base. If the ball pops out and the runner then touches the base before control is gained, then you have "safe."

Our situation is a tag of a runner. I think that you have an out the instant of the tag, as long as you do not lose the ball to the ground. And even there we have an issue on the amount of time that elasped after the tag and before the ball came out. (See old post referenced above.)

IMO, if the ball comes lose as a result of the contact and the defender regains control of the ball, even if the plate or bag is now touched by the runner, you have an out. How many times have you stood over a defender and said "show me the ball!" You don't care if she bobbled the ball, you are only insuring that it is not on or did not touch the ground.

So if you accept the premise that a bobbled ball that is captured before touching the ground results in an out, then the questions is what if the loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground?

WMB

IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

CecilOne

IRISHMAFIA wrote
ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

Is that the same as calling safe "Assuming the drop in S1 was part of the tag action and not a subsequent activity. If the fielder had control through the course of the tag and the drop was after the fact, caused by something else, probably out."

[deleted]

Safe, Safe, Safe!!!!! What if the catcher blocked the plate and applied the tag cleanly, the ball pops up in the air two feet and the catcher catches the ball? If you call the runner out, I hope I am not your partner for that game cause I'm sure I would have to remove 3 coaches and 14 parents from your hinder parts. What's the difference between 2ft and 2 inches in this case?

baldgriff

IRISHMAFIA wrote
ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

Just reading this and thinking about it. IF the fielder touches the runner with the ball securely held in their glove, then they should be holding it securely after the tag also. If they cant demonstrate that they held it securely by "showing you the ball" then they didnt sufficiently secure it.

Just my thought.

mcrowder

Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In the OP, it is obvious from the description that the ball was not held securely at the moment of the tag, since the tag itself caused the ball to dislodge. The fielder's ability to regain possession has nothing to do with it. Safe.

Mountaineer

mcrowder wrote
Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

I disagree. The rule book clearly states that a catch is "gaining control" of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In this instance, they were attempting to remove the ball from the glove and I find that to be intentional - I can't penalize her for someone else knocking it out of her hand for that.

Mountaineer

IRISHMAFIA wrote
ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

mcrowder

Mountaineer wrote
I disagree. The rule book clearly states that a catch is "gaining control" of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

Exactly. Voluntary release is ONE method (and not the only method) to determine of a fielder gained control on a catch. It does not (and never has) mean that there MUST be voluntary release for there to be a catch and/or possession.

We're talking about possession on a tag, not the act of GAINING possession in the first place. A tag, not a catch.

IRISHMAFIA

Mountaineer wrote
So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

Did I say that? Turn that filter off.

I don't care what type of tag it was, what I posted is what I meant, it doesn't change.