Summer Camp. New Rules.

26 Year Gap

The camps I am going to are team camps...both girls...so I hope there are not any budding Brandi Chastains.

SeanFitzRef

Went to two camps, with one more pending, and all have applied the new rules. Haven't had any problems with the Team control issue, got questioned on the double foul POI. after quickly explaining, played on without further incident.

rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
The camps I am going to are team camps...both girls...so I hope there are not any budding Brandi Chastains.

Brandi Chastain showed her bra. Big deal. There's less modesty and more exposure in the hallways of most schools. I really disagree with this rule, and I'm waiting to see how our association decides to enforce it.

which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

M&M Guy

Originally posted by rainmaker
which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

The way I've had the rule explained to me - yes, it is a T. Are you sure it was frustration with only herself, or could she have been "yelling" at you or your partners under cover of her jersey? I do that - I'll go home and yell into my pillow instead of yelling back at the coach. (My wife already thinks I'm nuts because I walk around the house on my heels, but that's another story...) Now, on a practical note, if I know for certain it was only for herself, and not done out in the middle of the floor for all to see, then I probably didn't see it happen; similar to how I would handle profanity. But it will be interesting to see how this is handled on a local association level, as well as the state level. I know we have been told in IL removing the jersey on the bench, to change it due to blood, is a T. I've already been told by several officials they will never "see" it, and therefore not call it.

BktBallRef

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
The camps I am going to are team camps...both girls...so I hope there are not any budding Brandi Chastains.

I happen to like Brandi Chastain and her choice of tops! 😀

BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

I don't think the rule is meant to address that situation, Juules. It addresses taking the shirt off, not pulling it up.

Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

I don't think the rule is meant to address that situation, Juules. It addresses taking the shirt off, not pulling it up.
According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though.

rainmaker

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
..which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

I don't think the rule is meant to address that situation, Juules. It addresses taking the shirt off, not pulling it up.
According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though.

That's what I would think.

Camron Rust

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

I don't think the rule is meant to address that situation, Juules. It addresses taking the shirt off, not pulling it up.
According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though.

While I agree with your characterization of "Terrible call", isn't frustrated precisely the same as and emotional display?

stmaryrams

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
which brings me to another aspect of it... In a game I did the other day, a player pulled her jersey up over her face for a moment, but she had a t-shirt underneath which did not get pulled up, and she attracted no attention to herself at all. It was just a private moment of frustration with herself. Is that within the rule to call, or not?

I don't think the rule is meant to address that situation, Juules. It addresses taking the shirt off, not pulling it up.
According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though.

While I agree with your characterization of "Terrible call", isn't frustrated precisely the same as and emotional display?

This is clearly the "Letter of the Law" vs the "Intent"

A player makes a mistake and is frustrated with themselves vs a situation where they disagree with a call.

I'm in the passing on that camp.

Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though. [/B]

While I agree with your characterization of "Terrible call", isn't frustrated precisely the same as and emotional display? [/B][/QUOTE]Sure is. I really don't think that the purpose and intent behind the institution of this new rule is to punish a player that is obviously frustrated with him/herself. The technical foul is supposed to be for unsporting behaviour and I personally can't see anything unsporting in the act that Juulie described. I think that this is maybe gonna get interesting when they talk about it at the state level. Hopefully, something somewhere down the line is gonna be issued that says we are able to use our own discretion on this particular type of action. If not, this rule could turn out to be the same as another "elbow thrown without contact=T" or "OOB deliberately=T" type of rule that everyone just decides to ignore.

M&M Guy

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
type of rule that everyone just decides to ignore.

Gasp!

A rule everyone decides to ignore? Isn't that putting one team at an unfair advantage?

Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
type of rule that everyone just decides to ignore.

Gasp!

A rule everyone decides to ignore? Isn't that putting one team at an unfair advantage?

How could it possibly be doing that if you're ignoring the call at both ends of the floor? 😕

Now, if you only ignore it against one team during a blowout.....

rainmaker

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
type of rule that everyone just decides to ignore.

Gasp!

A rule everyone decides to ignore? Isn't that putting one team at an unfair advantage?
How could it possibly be doing that if you're ignoring the call at both ends of the floor? 😕

Only if one team breaks the rule, and the other one doesn't. THen you can't call it at both ends. Even so, I can't see any advantage gained by changing the jersey in the gym versus going to the locker room (or more likely behind the bleachers.)

M&M Guy

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
How could it possibly be doing that if you're ignoring the call at both ends of the floor? 😕

Now, if you only ignore it against one team during a blowout.....

Ok.

But, if it only happens on one end of the floor, or against only one player, isn't that a disadvantage to the other team even if you plan on calling it the same for them, but never get a chance? Or, how about after you let this one discreetly go, and 5 minutes later the other team does it because they didn't like your block/charge call? Do you not call that as well because you didn't call the first one, so you can keep things the same on both ends?

I don't disagree with your philosophy on calling things equally, 99.99% of the time. I'm just trying to find that elusive delicate balance for the other .01%.

Camron Rust

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

According to the NFHS web site, the rule is meant to address that exact same situation. Under 2005-06 POE's --"A"- it says "pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display" is a "T".

Terrible call if the player was just frustrated though.

While I agree with your characterization of "Terrible call", isn't frustrated precisely the same as and emotional display? [/B]

Sure is. I really don't think that the purpose and intent behind the institution of this new rule is to punish a player that is obviously frustrated with him/herself. The technical foul is supposed to be for unsporting behaviour and I personally can't see anything unsporting in the act that Juulie described. I think that this is maybe gonna get interesting when they talk about it at the state level. Hopefully, something somewhere down the line is gonna be issued that says we are able to use our own discretion on this particular type of action. If not, this rule could turn out to be the same as another "elbow thrown without contact=T" or "OOB deliberately=T" type of rule that everyone just decides to ignore. [/B][/QUOTE]

While I would have hoped that the intent were as you say, one of the posted situations was the removal of a bloody shirt to change to a new one. The note with it said that the player is expected to go to the locker room to change the shirt....or get a T.

johnny1784

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
In every league I've worked in I have used the new rules, they have come up but not too many times. I have had the double foul and offensive foul come up, have not had the OOB violation yet.

Ditto. Also, I haven't given a T yet to any of the many players who have changed their shirts "within the visual confines of the playing area." I just can't accept that one.

Why can't you accept and adhere to all rule changes?

rainmaker

Originally posted by johnny1784

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
In every league I've worked in I have used the new rules, they have come up but not too many times. I have had the double foul and offensive foul come up, have not had the OOB violation yet.

Ditto. Also, I haven't given a T yet to any of the many players who have changed their shirts "within the visual confines of the playing area." I just can't accept that one.

Why can't you accept and adhere to all rule changes?

I will accept and adhere to all rule changes as they are interpreted by my association. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

tomegun

I'm not one to shy away from a T if it is deserved but I think I will give the players and the coaches a warning about this during the captains/coaches meeting prior to the game. I think I will try to explain to them that this is a rule in black and white. I think this rule is a tad bit touchy but will apply it if the board wants it carried out by the book. I'm sure someone will bring it up at most meetings and our local interpreters will be able to tell us what they think. Has this stopped us in the past with some rules? No. However, if we are directed to call it by the book there is nothing that says we can't do something prior to the game to prevent it from happening.

SeanFitzRef

Tom,
I like that approach and will probably do something similar during my pregame with coaches and captains. 'An ounce of prevention is sometimes better than a pound of cure'.