Game Situation

DanIvey

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
T admitted he was stopping the game because he thought that he had a correctable error situation, not because of a foul by A1 or out of bounds by B1. The correct procedure was to charge B2 for a TF (the F-word is always a disqualification as far as I am concerned). Team A gets two free throws and the ball at the division line across opposite side of the S/T Table.

Disqualification for the "F" word and not directed at anyone in particular? I guess I've been to lenient...NOT!

P.S. Never, ever listen to a Limp Bizcuit CD! 🙂

Dan_ref

Originally posted by DanIvey

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
T admitted he was stopping the game because he thought that he had a correctable error situation, not because of a foul by A1 or out of bounds by B1. The correct procedure was to charge B2 for a TF (the F-word is always a disqualification as far as I am concerned). Team A gets two free throws and the ball at the division line across opposite side of the S/T Table.

Disqualification for the "F" word and not directed at anyone in particular? I guess I've been to lenient...NOT!

P.S. Never, ever listen to a Limp Bizcuit CD! 🙂

The Dans agree. I'll let the occasional F***, Oh sh*t,
and other *non-directed* and *mostly unheard* obsenities go.
Of course, direct them at anyone or say it loud enough for
the first row to hear & we've got a T.

As for this thing where the coach demands to know exactly
what his player said, I beleive it's a power game played
by the coach. If the coach didn't hear what was said I
feel no obligation to tell him anything other than
a profanity was used, and he ain't going to get me to
repeat it. Once you've told him what was said you open
yourself up to "You T'ed him for THAT??!!"

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 14th, 2001 at 09:44 PM]

Hawks Coach

Using the F word should be no question as far as a T goes. What better example of 10-3-8b do you need? Why is a coach mad at the ref about calling this one?

rainmaker

Originally posted by Dan_ref
The Dans agree. I'll let the occasional F***, Oh sh*t,
and other *non-directed* and *mostly unheard* obsenities go.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 14th, 2001 at 09:44 PM] [/B]

I usually give the "hairy eyeball" for this. It gets the message across without embarassing anyone, and it even worked on one coach the other day!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I would like to comment on the use of the F-word.

I am 49 years old and a member of the free speech movement of the 60's and 70's that has held true to his convictions and have not become politically correct. I will defend to the death the First Amendment except for libel, slander, and falsely yell fire in a crowded theater. I do not believe in censorship in any shape or form. Having said that let me say that one must exercise responsibility (not self censorship) when choosing the words that one uses to express themselves.

I am a structural design engineer and my father was a carpenter for over fifty years. I have been on construction sites all of my life (it seems) and I would describe my language as colorful at times. That means that I can curl your hair if it is straight and straighten it is curly, etc., etc.

The player who uses the F-word should be commended for exercising his/her First Amendment rights during a basketball game (or anyother sporting event), but there is a price to pay for not conducting him/herself in a sportsmanlike manner. Why? A basketball game is not a democracy. Due to my business I also can substitute teach mathematics and physics in my local school district and today's students do not understand the concept that a classroom is not a democracy. A classroom is a dictatorship and the teacher is the dictator.

Over the last thirty years or so this country has seen a decline in civility in all segments of life. But good manners and good sportmanship is timeless. If one of my students uses the F-word, that student is done for the day in my class. The use of incidental profane language in my classroom or on the sporting field will be dealt with appropriate penalty (TF, yellow card, restricted to the bench for baseball and softball).

There is no excuse for vulgar language in sports. Fred Horgan, a former president of IAABO and Canadian representative to FIBA, has always said that we officials are the keepers of the game of basketball and hold the integrity of the game in our hands, not the players or coaches. And we must step and take that responsibility.

Would I lose any sleep over disqualifying B2 for his incidental use of the F-word. Furthermore, if the coach ask you what the player said it is all right and necessary for you to tell him exactly what the player said. If you do not want to actually say the F-word tell the coach that his player used the F-word and how the player used it. You should always tell the coach exactly what the player said if the coach asks and you should always report exactly what the player or coach (if it is a coach that is the guilty party) in your game report if a report is required. You cannot be diplomatic in a game report. The authorities need to know exactly what happened so that proper action can be taken against the guilty parties.

I apologize for getting on my soap box but if an official is not willing to do his/her job because everybody uses profanity now, then maybe it is time for that official to consider hang-up the whistle.

RookieDude

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Using the F word should be no question as far as a T goes. What better example of 10-3-8b do you need? Why is a coach mad at the ref about calling this one?

A "T" yes, but "Disqualification"? Would you be "mad" if a ref disqualified a player for that game, and the subsequent game (since it is a disqualification), for saying the "F" word after he missed a lay-up?

Hawks Coach

Originally posted by RookieDude

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Using the F word should be no question as far as a T goes. What better example of 10-3-8b do you need? Why is a coach mad at the ref about calling this one?

A "T" yes, but "Disqualification"? Would you be "mad" if a ref disqualified a player for that game, and the subsequent game (since it is a disqualification), for saying the "F" word after he missed a lay-up?

I would be more than mad. I would take it straight to the league if we got a DQ off one profanity, whether after a missed layup or a foul call. 10-3-8 is not a flagrant, and one explosion is not enough to warrant a DQ. The rule says T, that's precisely what it should be. I have to take strong issue with Mark D's postion on this one. It seems to be creating a new rule where a clear rule alrready exists.

My initial comment above dealt only with a coach being mad about getting a T for this. If this situation doesn't fit the rule, what does?!!

rainmaker

Mark DeNucci, Sr --

I am wondering if your remarks are aimed at my comment about "using the hairy eyeball". I assure you, I NEVER let the F-word go, or any profanity of any kind, but especially not the F-word. I do, however, upon occasion, give only the above referenced H.B. if the word is so quiet that literally no one hears except me. This is usually the S-word, or the D-word, I think since most people save the F-word for angry expression.

I completely agree that profanity is inappropriate and should not be tolerated in any way in sports. My personal opinion is that it should never be tolerated anywhere, but apparently you and I don't agree about that. But that's fine. Off the floor, out of the gym, we do live in a democracy and you are free to express yourself however you choose. Basketball is NOT a democracy, as you so aptly point out.

Still, I think the goal of no profanity can sometimes be achieved without giving a T if a kid gets the message that I am observing closely and this stuff matters. I know my experience in these matters is limited, and it may be that at the higher levels of play, I will be handling this differently. However, for me right now, it works sometimes to give only the warning look. I guess it's sort of like giving the coach the stop sign. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but when it does, it's the right thing to do.

JRutledge

I think it depends on the levels. Now I realize that some of you might jump on be because of this, but the level does matter. As I have stated before, I do mostly varsity, and doing varsity you get louder gyms, more intense games and just plain more jabbing back and forth between players and official. You have to tolerate more because if you throw someone out, just like the Supreme Court, your decisions will be evaluated by others. Now at the varsity level you are going to hear some profanity, not necessarily towards you as an official, but at least towards fellow teammates and sometimes to other players. Now, the problem is that you will not always hear who said what or if profanity is used, it might not be directed at you at all and no one is going to hear it but maybe a couple of people on the court. If you give a T for that, you are going to have problems. And even sometimes coaches will use profanity while talking to you, but it will not always be at you or even about you. Now, I agree the lower you go in level the less tolerent you should be, because a better example should be set at those level. But when you get to varsity and college games, you have to adjust or you will not be there very long.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets look why the use of the F-word can be considered a disqualifying foul. The NFHS and NCAA rules approach this situation in different ways.

NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

NFHS R10-S3-A8b: A player shall not committ an unsportsmanlike foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.

NCAA R4-S25-A4: Flagrant foul, live ball. A flagrant foul shall be a personal that involves severe or excessive contact with an opponent while the ball is live.

NCAA R4-S25-A5: Flagrant foul, dead ball. A flagrant foul shall be a direct technical foul when it involves either unsportiing conduct that is extreme in nature or severe, excessive contact against an opponent while the ball is dead. A5a: An exception is a foul by an airborne shooter.

NCAA R10-S5-A2: Direct Technical Fouls for Unsporting Player Conduct. Unsporting tactics of players include, but are not limited to the following: Using profanity or vulgarity; taunting, baiting, or ridiculing another player or bench personnel; pointing a finger at or making obscene gestures toward another player or bench personnel.

NFHS rules state that vulgar conduct is a flagrant foul. NCAA rules state that using a vulgarity is a direct technical foul. I would hope that nobody would disagree that the F-word is a vulgarity. That being the case, disqualifying a high school age player for using the F-word is a no brainer. I find that disqualifying a college age player for using the F-word because we should expect better behavior from a college educated person.

Playing for your school or college team is a privilege. Part of competing in sports is controlling one's emotions. If one cannot control his/her emotions within acceptable limits then that person forfeits his/her right to compete.

JRutledge

I would totally agree with you if they are talking to me as an official or another player or coach. But the problem is that I am not going to do something if a kid says something to his teammate or to him or herself. I agree that it may be vulgar, but to the degree is another issue. And depending on where you are and who is talking or around, you might have some debate on that. I am not one to encourage profanity or to just let it pass, but are you going to go into a huddle of players and coaches and give T's for language between themselves? I say a kid last week push his own teammate in anger, are we going to give a T for teammates fighting? I really do not have an answer other than you have to live with your decisions, and if that is acceptable to you, then be out!! You have the right to make any kind of judgement you like on the issue, but others have the right to disagre and debate you on it. And I know that all of us to not feel the same on this issue and never will. We can give all kinds of rules wordings and justifications for doing what we do.

10-4 Says:

Commit an unsportsmanlike foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:

a. Disrespectfully addressing an official.

Not this first one alone is going to give great debate, because something said to one official might be precieved as disrespectful and to another, it just complaining.

e. Objecting to an officials decision by rising from the bench or using gestures.

We would never have a coach if we applied to this all the time.

g. Squad member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorers' table.

Now I use all these examples to illustrated that judgement is always going to apply. I really feel there is no right or wrong here, I just feel that you have to find what works for you and stick to it. If the slightest behavior of any of these gets a T from you, more power to you. But for many of us, we are going to give a little rope so when they do hang, they hang themselves.

Brian Watson

My usual progeression goes like this.

If it is a non f-bomb directed a no one (ie frustration) and no one heard it; I let them know I heard it, and then they really feel stupid. In my opinion, this is all that is needed.

If it is an F-bomb I'll wack him/her.

If it is directed at another player or official Flagrant, no questions asked.

If it is just your garden variety profanity directed at another player or offical, whack.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Nowhere in the NFHS and NCAA rule books does it say that use of a vulgarity to be a technical foul that it must be directed toward an opponent or an official. The use of a vulgarity by a participant in a sporting event is unacceptable.

This past Fall in a boys' H.S. varsity soccer game a player called his teammate a F-ing SOB and not only did I hear it but about ten other player heard it. The player was mad at his teammate for missing a header on a crossing pass. I sent the player off (red card), that is soccer speak for being disqualified. I had no objection from the player's coach. This occured 1-1/2 minutes into the game.

We officials are the real protectors of the integrity of the game. Just because vulgarity is becoming acceptable by some segments of society is no reason to lower our standards of acceptable behavior.

There is no place for that kind of behavior by a player or a coach and should not be tolerated.

glind

This is a very interesting subject. My personal way of dealing with it is like many of you said if it is not directed at anyone and not to loud, I just let them know that I heard it and I usally don't have any other problems. I will T the F-word up right away, but unless it was directed at an official or a player I would not disqualify that player.

Now, I have a question. What would you do if you heard the F-word but did not know who said? What if you knew what team?

rainmaker

glind, I second the question.

DeNucci -- I see your point about the F-word being a flagrant, not just a T. In December, I had a game with a real prima donna who thought if he didn't make his shot, there should have been a foul. Halfway through the second quarter, he missed a lay-up, and as he was rebounding his shot he yelled, "FFFF-----------!!!!!" They probably heard it in the next county. I T'd him of course, but what you are saying is that it should have been flagrant? It would have been better in this case as a flagrant, because he really carried an attitude the rest of the game, until he fouled out in the third quarter. Once he was gone, the game went a lot better.

But if a team is behind by two with 30 seconds left and a kid misses a fast break lay-up, and stands there under the basket swearing to himself, and literally no one hears it except me, should I DQ? I don't know...it just feels a little officious.

Mark Dexter

Originally posted by glind
Now, I have a question. What would you do if you heard the F-word but did not know who said? What if you knew what team?

You can't call it.

An unsporting technical foul must be charged to a person (i.e. it is not one of the admin team T's). You can't just say "Technical foul on blue bench."