Is it a Dropped Third Strike ?

Bandit

Dropped Third Strike Rule as it is shown in the '04 ASA Rulebook:

Rule 8,
Section 1 The Batter Becomes a Batter-Runner
B. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground when;
1. There are fewer than two outs and first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch, or
2. There are two outs and first base is occupied. This is called the third strike rule.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base with less than two outs and first base is not occupied at the time of the pitch.

Ok. Here is the question: Where does it say that the batter may become a batter-runner when there are 2 outs, first base "unoccupied" and the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground? Where Am I missing this in the book? I believe we all know this to be the rule but where is it written. Are ae assuming something that could be argued? Or have i simply read this rule too many times and I keep skipping over the answer to my question ?

ASA/NYSSOBLUE

Originally posted by Bandit
Dropped Third Strike Rule as it is shown in the '04 ASA Rulebook:

Rule 8,
Section 1 The Batter Becomes a Batter-Runner
B. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground when;
1. There are fewer than two outs and first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch, or
2. There are two outs and first base is occupied. This is called the third strike rule.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base with less than two outs and first base is not occupied at the time of the pitch.

Ok. Here is the question: Where does it say that the batter may become a batter-runner when there are 2 outs, first base "unoccupied" and the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground? Where Am I missing this in the book? I believe we all know this to be the rule but where is it written. Are ae assuming something that could be argued? Or have i simply read this rule too many times and I keep skipping over the answer to my question ?

The key word is 'catch'....when the catcher takes the pitch on a bounce,it is not 'caught' but 'trapped',the same as any other fielder. The rule reads: 'Caught before it hits the ground',so when the pitch is bounced,it has hit the ground'

Lou

jstark23

If you had a coach that was going to be highly technical and argue the actual language of 8.1.b.1 I think he might would have an argument to be honest, even though its not one that any of us would listen to for very long... I would say that the language of that rule should be changed to read that anytime first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch

whiskers_ump

John,

How many coaches actually know the rules?

IRISHMAFIA

Originally posted by Bandit
Dropped Third Strike Rule as it is shown in the '04 ASA Rulebook:

Rule 8,
Section 1 The Batter Becomes a Batter-Runner
B. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground when;
1. There are fewer than two outs and first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch, or
2. There are two outs and first base is occupied. This is called the third strike rule.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base with less than two outs and first base is not occupied at the time of the pitch.

Ok. Here is the question: Where does it say that the batter may become a batter-runner when there are 2 outs, first base "unoccupied" and the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground? Where Am I missing this in the book? I believe we all know this to be the rule but where is it written. Are ae assuming something that could be argued? Or have i simply read this rule too many times and I keep skipping over the answer to my question ?

You need not worry about this any longer! It is no longer necessary to lose sleep over this as there will be a change in the'05 book, or so Craig Cress has promised.

Next year, 8.1.B.2 should read, "2. There are two outs." or something similar.

jstark23

Glen,
My friend as always your bring us back into the real world with an extremely salient point
🙂

Bandit

Thank You Mr. Irishmafia. I have to ask a couple of simple / courious questions here. Partly because it's December 20th and things are sorta slow. ASA/NYSSOBLUE.....how did we get to the explination of the words and or "key" words. The original question had nothing to do with this matter. jstark23.....if the coach has a legit question and or concern isn't our responsibility to listen and if he or she were to bring this up as it is written could it hold up to a protest? whiskers_ump....."How many coaches actually know the rules?" most rule changes are a result of coaches knowing how to get around the current rules. jstark23....I am a simple person, what does "salient" mean ? I just sorta wondered about these things as I read the different treads ???

whiskers_ump

Mr. Bandit,

According to the American College Dictionary,

Salient is:
1] prominet or conspicuous;
2] projecting or pointing outward as an angle.
3] leaping or jumping.

Mr. Stark was and may still be a journalist. Do not know
how well he handled/handles that job, but is is an excellent
umpire.

....."How many coaches actually know the rules?" most rule changes are a result of coaches knowing how to get around the current rules.

Don't know about that, cause most around here (coaches) don't
know if it is a dropped 3K, a missed 3K, an uncaught 3K, or
just a muffed pitch. LOL

Have a Very Happy Holiday season.

Dakota

Originally posted by Bandit
if the coach has a legit question and or concern isn't our responsibility to listen

Within limits. I won't conduct a rules clinic during a game.

Originally posted by Bandit
and if he or she were to bring this up as it is written could it hold up to a protest?

No. And it would indicate to me a coach who knows full well what the rule is and thinks I don't and wants to take advantage. I would have very little time on the field for this discussion, and if the coach wants to officially protest, I'd be glad to help him through the process.

Originally posted by Bandit
I am a simple person, what does "salient" mean ?

Salient.

As a self-confessed simple person, you might want to bookmark that site's home page. I have.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE

OK Bandit..Ill bite...I DID mis-read your question;which was:

Where does it say that the batter may become a batter-runner when there are two outs...etc...

Just remember that the batter AUTOMATICALLY becomes the batter-runner under this rule..not 'allowed' as inferred by your question (you said 'may become')...this is why when the 'uncaught 3rd strike' with the bases loaded,all runners are forced,which is all the C has to do is step on home for the out...

the only coach I have met who knows all the rules is a 11/12 yr old coach whois a member of our association and works varsity games...

Dakota

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
the only coach I have met who knows all the rules is a 11/12 yr old coach who is a member of our association and works varsity games...

That's awfully young for a coach, let alone a varsity umpire! 😀

KJ'sDAD

Would not this change cover it and be easier to understand?

Just lose this part.

"and first base is occupied."

I could scratcth this out of my rule book real easily.

KJ'sDAD

And all we need do for Section two is drop some more.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base with less than two outs and first base is not occupied at the time of the pitch.

Change to:

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base.

Batter can not legally become the Batter-Runner unless Section 1 is satisfied.

IRISHMAFIA

Originally posted by KJ'sDAD
Rule 8,
Section 1 The Batter Becomes a Batter-Runner
B. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground when;
1. There are fewer than two outs and first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch, or
2. There are two outs and first base is occupied.

Would not this change cover it and be easier to understand?

Rule 8,
Section 1 The Batter Becomes a Batter-Runner
B. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher fails to catch the third strike before the ball touches the ground when;
1. There are fewer than two outs and first base is unoccupied at the time of the pitch, or
2. There are two outs.

Just lose this part.

"and first base is occupied."

I could scratcth this out of my rule book real easily.

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. Why waste the keystrokes? This is a done deal.

I'd rather have to deal with "dream plays" than constantly rehash old news.

KJ'sDAD

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. Why waste the keystrokes? This is a done deal.

Sorry Mike, but I have been paying attention. Your post relative to the wording change was a little vague, so I felt compelled to offer a suggested word change.

And if you really don't like wasting keystrokes or rehashing old news why are you wasting time responding to this post?

IRISHMAFIA

Originally posted by KJ'sDAD

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. Why waste the keystrokes? This is a done deal.

Sorry Mike, but I have been paying attention. Your post relative to the wording change was a little vague, so I felt compelled to offer a suggested word change.

And if you really don't like wasting keystrokes or rehashing old news why are you wasting time responding to this post?

You call this vague?

Next year, 8.1.B.2 should read, "2. There are two outs." or something similar.

No wonder there are so many people out there having difficulty with interpretations.

I'm done here.

KJ'sDAD

"or something similar." Hardly concrete.

Changing section 1. without adressing section 2. will leave the rule confusing.

"I'm done here." I'd bet against it.

whiskers_ump

Why address section 2 of Rule 8.?

KJ'sDAD

Glen;

What happens if there are two outs and first base is or is not occupied? Can the Batter-runner still be put out?

Of course she can, but by leaving Section 2 alone it would imply that the Batter-Runner could not.

Now if the rule is amended to read:

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner Is Out
A. (Fast Pitch Only) When the catcher drops the third strike and is legally put out prior to reaching first base.

The Batter can be put out any time she become a legal Batter-Runner as per Section 1. I think the simpler the language the better.

Kevin

whiskers_ump

KJ'sDAD,

What is the title of Rule 8 Section 2.

Section 1 B.2. is the only place the change would be
required.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS