Offensive Holding

wh52

Had an interesting conversation with a JV coach last night. TD was called back due to OH. Player A put both hands under defensive players shoulder pads and pulled him to the ground. Coach went nuts claiming that it was legal because his hands were inside the frame. I responded with " no player shall grasp, grab,or block with closed hands inside the frame. He said that's horse**** and I didn't know the rules. I thanked him for that information and said you have two timeouts left.

James Neil

Originally posted by wh52
He said that's horse**** and I didn't know the rules. I thanked him for that information and said you have two timeouts left.

I would have added "and one unsportsmanlike left"

Rich

Originally posted by James Neil

Originally posted by wh52
He said that's horse**** and I didn't know the rules. I thanked him for that information and said you have two timeouts left.

I would have added "and one unsportsmanlike left"

Yup. And pull is the word that makes it a hold.

Ed Hickland

Ask him how you get a player to the ground without holding him.

I agree his description of your explanation would qualify him for 15 more yards.

ABoselli

Ask him how you get a player to the ground without holding him.

Maybe he talked him into it?

JV coaches - love those guys.

chiefgil

You certainly qualify to be a gentleman of style and grace. I think you handled the situation correctly.

Butthead JV coaches are in training to become even bigger buttheads when they move up to varsity. And they still don't know the rules.

Good job!

Forksref

Originally posted by chiefgil
You certainly qualify to be a gentleman of style and grace. I think you handled the situation correctly.

Butthead JV coaches are in training to become even bigger buttheads when they move up to varsity. And they still don't know the rules.

Good job!

Rules? We don't need no stinkin' RULES!

WyMike

How about a B player 'pulling' down an A player? Defensive Holding? Do you allow it and where?

MJT

Originally posted by WyMike
How about a B player 'pulling' down an A player? Defensive Holding? Do you allow it and where?

2-3-5b says "defensive players may push, PULL, or ward off an opponent in an attempt to get at the runner."
So it depends on when and where, which is usually obvious. I have called defensive holding on a D-lineman who was tackling an O-lineman as he tried to release and get a block on a linebacker. Obviously def holding on receivers, and so on.

MI Official

on an option play around the end. QB keeps and the Defender tackles the pitch man. holding? I would say yes because, although he is a potential blocker, he is BEHIND the runner and not faking.

WyMike

Originally posted by MJT

2-3-5b says "defensive players may push, PULL, or ward off an opponent in an attempt to get at the runner."
So it depends on when and where, which is usually obvious. I have called defensive holding on a D-lineman who was tackling an O-lineman as he tried to release and get a block on a linebacker. Obviously def holding on receivers, and so on.

That is where I was leading to. The word 'pull' within the line obviously contemplates the fact in order to 'pull' one must have a grasp of something, right?

I have flagged DH but only once and away from the play entirely. But the B player totally took down an A player by wrapping him up in a huge bear hug and taking him to the ground.

Now if the NFHS would only define 'Pull' and 'Sling' in Section 2...

Originally posted by MI Official
on an option play around the end. QB keeps and the Defender tackles the pitch man. holding? I would say yes because, although he is a potential blocker, he is BEHIND the runner and not faking.

This I would agree with. But the pitchman can still be 'blocked'. Now what if the pitchman was forward of the QB? DPI?

[Edited by WyMike on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 03:59 PM]

mcrowder

In Fed, can you have DPI behind the NZ? If not, then I can't see DPI here unless the QB is behind the line and pitchman in front (and there's enough separation for you to tell the difference, and the hit came at just the right moment, and ....... heck - it would be quite a situation to make this DPI).

MJT

Originally posted by mcrowder
In Fed, can you have DPI behind the NZ? If not, then I can't see DPI here unless the QB is behind the line and pitchman in front (and there's enough separation for you to tell the difference, and the hit came at just the right moment, and ....... heck - it would be quite a situation to make this DPI).

In NF you cannot have DPI behind the NZ 7-5-7

mcrowder

Didn't think so. Makes the DPI on the pitch man pretty much not possible except in the most bizarre of circumstances.

cmathews

WyMike...."I have flagged DH but only once and away from the play entirely. But the B player totally took down an A player by wrapping him up in a huge bear hug and taking him to the ground."

if it is away from the play and has no effect on the play, never and I can't stress it enough never call holding... a personal foul if it is warranted or something, but never holding....Holding is purely an advantage/disadvantage call..and if it is away from the play there is no advantage...a stern warning and maybe a don't be foolish, but not a hanky...BTW, did you guys get any playoff games up your way??

MJT

Originally posted by cmathews
WyMike...."I have flagged DH but only once and away from the play entirely. But the B player totally took down an A player by wrapping him up in a huge bear hug and taking him to the ground."

if it is away from the play and has no effect on the play, never and I can't stress it enough never call holding... a personal foul if it is warranted or something, but never holding....Holding is purely an advantage/disadvantage call..and if it is away from the play there is no advantage...a stern warning and maybe a don't be foolish, but not a hanky...BTW, did you guys get any playoff games up your way??

Advantage/disadvantage should be taken into account on most fouls with exception always being safety.

BulldogMcC

I had defensive holding one time this year. I was the LJ on the weak side, so I had the TE as my key. TE released by taking a step outside of the DE who was trying to jam him at the line but missed. DE then grabbed hold if the TE's jersey as he passed by (no longer a potential blocker) and pulled him back between himself and the QB, he then threw the TE to the ground. Of course the defensive coach complained he was just throwing off a potential blocker. That coach never did send me the film clip of my 'horrible' call, he must have forgotten.

ABoselli

Had a defensive hold Friday. Kid was beat and he reached out and held him across the waist. QB took off and ran - nobody open, in part because one of his recievers was brought to a stop by the defender. Clear advantage gained.

Referencing an earlier part of this thread - 'pull' doesn't necessarily mean to grasp anything. If I reach behind your shoulder and pull you toward me, that's pulling. I don't have to grab your shirt or anything, but it's still a 'pull'.

WyMike

Originally posted by cmathews
BTW, did you guys get any playoff games up your way??

Our association did get some playoff games. Although I didn't... Some lame excuse about "First year officials" or something... Can you imagine that? Whatever... lol

cmathews

WyMike,
Which games did they have, our association had Cody and Riverton....don't you just hate lame excuses LOL