Very "unusual" situation! HELP!

VaCoach

Situation: Player A is fouled, and Team A is in the double bonus. After foul is called, Player A and Player B, face off and start to "mouth" to one another, a double technical is called. Player A goes to the line to shot his double bonus foul shots. After first shot is made, horn blows and the scorer informs the referee that the technical foul on Player A, was his fifth foul. So you now see the situation that we have found ourselves in. Player A has already shot and made one free throw, he is entitled to a second attempt, but he is now a "disqualified player"...What should happen from here?? Do you let Player A shot his second shot and then replace him, or do you count his first one, since he or the officials didnt know he had fouled out, and make his sub shoot foul shot two? or do you remove the first fould shot and make Player A's sub shoot both free throws? I can not find this situation in any "Case Book"..Please give me your opinion and where in the rule book is this covered.

mcdanrd

I do not have my rule book with me but I think that since the free throws are awarded in the order that the fouls occurred, that player A would shoot the free throws. His substitute would come in after the last throw for the alternating arrow possession for the double-T.

DJ

Perhaps we have a correctable error?

Robert E. Harrison

A player is disqualified when the official notifies the coach and then the player. A replacement is brought in within the 30 sec time frame and the replacement would shoot the second free throw and you would count the first free throw if made. If no sub is available any team member on the floor may shoot the final freethrow.

thumpferee

Originally posted by DJ
Perhaps we have a correctable error?

Good point!

See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

nine01c

It is not an unmerited free throw or a correctable error. Player A was still a legal player when he shot the first foul shot because he had not been disqualified yet. The free throw counts and his sub will shoot the second free throw.

rainmaker

Originally posted by nine01c
It is not an unmerited free throw or a correctable error. Player A was still a legal player when he shot the first foul shot because he had not been disqualified yet. The free throw counts and his sub will shoot the second free throw.

This one has my vote!

DJ

We disreguard the error of substituion and then call it a merited freethrow? Opinion or fact?

DJ

I also thought that free throws by the wrong player were corredtable errors?

eyezen

Originally posted by DJ
I also thought that free throws by the wrong player were corredtable errors?

As stated above...

Did player A have 5 personal fouls - Yes

Is he a disqualified player - No

The table officials did not notify the court officals of the disqualification, hence the court officials did not notify the coach and player, hence the player is not a disqualified player, hence the wrong player did not shoot a frew throw, hence no unmerited free throw was taken, hence no correctable error.

Dan_ref

Originally posted by DJ
We disreguard the error of substituion and then call it a merited freethrow? Opinion or fact?

There is no "error of substitution". The officials on the floor properly let A1 shoot his first FT because they were not yet informed by the officials at the table that A1 had 5 fouls. Once informed A1's sub gets the second FT and we finish the game.

bob jenkins

Originally posted by DJ
I also thought that free throws by the wrong player were corredtable errors?

They are.

But this wasn't FTs by the wrong player.

Look, if A1 gets the 5th foul, but the table doesn't let us know for a few minutes, during which A1 gets a steal, socres a basket, commits a TO, we don't go back and "undo" all of that -- it's not correctable. The FT situation is no different.

In fact, even if the table does let the officials know, and the officials decide to let A1 shoot before s/he goes to the bench (since the ball will be dead after the last shot anyway), it's not correctable. It's a "substitution error" (yes, I made that term up), not FTs by the wrong shooter. The FED had a specific interp on this a few years ago.

DJ

Did the right player shoot the free throw or the wrong player?

DJ

I agree that we don't undo all that because that is not correctable.

Back In The Saddle

An unmeritted free-throw is one that should not have been given. The A player was fouled while his team was in the double bonus. Therefore the free-throws are meritted.

Also, the A player is the correct player to shoot the free-throws. He is not officially disqualified until the coach is notified. Since the officials were not notified until after the first free-throw, that was the earliest moment that they could notify the coach.

This is not a correctable error situation. A's free-throw stands. Have A's sub shoot the second free throw.

DJ

Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria. The rule is designed to prevent the wrong person from shooting a free throw and the wrong person shot the free throw. It seems that the intent of the rule is there but... Or the right wrong person shot the free throw? Bench personal are so important to good officiating. I always dread it when I hear the horn go off and the bench signals me or my partner to come over because something has happened and now we have to be an attorney instead of an official and figure out what is wrong and in most cases the rules will not allow for a fix even though obvious mistakes have been made. Bench personal can make or break a good game. Thanks for the discussion and until someone can show me a case or ruling I am not entirely convinced.

cmathews

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Originally posted by DJ
I also thought that free throws by the wrong player were corredtable errors?

They are.

But this wasn't FTs by the wrong player.

Look, if A1 gets the 5th foul, but the table doesn't let us know for a few minutes, during which A1 gets a steal, socres a basket, commits a TO, we don't go back and "undo" all of that -- it's not correctable. The FT situation is no different.

In fact, even if the table does let the officials know, and the officials decide to let A1 shoot before s/he goes to the bench (since the ball will be dead after the last shot anyway), it's not correctable. It's a "substitution error" (yes, I made that term up), not FTs by the wrong shooter. The FED had a specific interp on this a few years ago.

Bob, do you think the fed has since changed the interp or do you think it would still stand. I see your "substitution error situation" as correctable. When the officials were notified, then allowed the player to shoot..... nope you are right, it would only be correctable if they notified the coach...if they kept it to themselves it would be wrong but not a correctable error.....wow...

Schmidt MJ

Originally posted by DJ
Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria.

You're close on your definition of a correctable error but you're not quite right. Errors are correctable if recognized by an official DURING the first dead ball, not UNTIL the first dead ball. Also, it is the first dead ball AFTER THE CLOCK HAS BEEN PROPERLY STARTED,not the first dead ball FOLLOWING THE FIRST LIVE BALL. The ball actually becomes live when it is at the disposal of the free thrower but the clock does not run during the free throws for this situation.

JugglingReferee

Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by nine01c
It is not an unmerited free throw or a correctable error. Player A was still a legal player when he shot the first foul shot because he had not been disqualified yet. The free throw counts and his sub will shoot the second free throw.

This one has my vote!

Mine too.

thumpferee

I'm stickin with my guns here!

'02-'03 Rules Book
See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

Case book 2.10.1.A No difference IMO