Wanted to disappear...

zebraman

I'm not turning away from a competitive play to see the coach. Sounds like your partner was in a better position to see the coach and may have seen the time-out request eventually. If the coach gives me grief I'd just say, "Coach, do you really want me to turn my back to the players during a competitive situation to look at you?" If he's still unhappy, too darn bad.

BktBallRef

Originally posted by finnref
Hi Bart. May I present an opoosite view. The TO does not occur when it is requested. It occurs when you call it which is when you blow the whistle.

So, if a player jumps, grabs the ball to save it from going OOB, requests TO, and then lands OOB, you're not going to give him the TO because you didn't blow your whistle before he landed?

finnref

In this situation of the player going out of bounds, he gets the time out. there has been no change in bal plaition bt=etween request and whistle. In this case the lage time between request and whistle is no longer than that for any violation of foul call. When there is an obvious change in ball location or play situation that is longer than the usual whistle lag time, the coach does not get the TO.

Bart Tyson

Lag Time? I have a very slow whistle. I see the foul, I think to myself, yes, thats a foul, beep. HHHmmmmmm. I guess I can tell the coach I take it back, I was tooooo slow. 🙂

BktBallRef

Originally posted by finnref
there has been no change in bal plaition bt=etween request and whistle.

I don't know what that means.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. If the coach requests TO and there's player control when the request is made, grant the TO.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bart and BktBallRef are correct. If there is player control when the request for a team timeout is made, then the timeout request must be granted.

I am not sure how long Bart has been officiating women's college, but the head coach has been allowed to request a team timeout in women's college for over 30's years. I know that there are H.S. officials who do not like having head coaches request team timeouts, but a good pre-game and proper mechanics can reduce the problem that happened in the posted play.

From the description of the play I am going to make an educated assumption that the officiating crew was a two-man crew and that the Trail official was Table-side. In situations like the posted play, the official who is Opposite-the-Table needs to be aware of possible timeout situations and should be the official who grants the head coach's request for a team timeout. This eliminates the need for the Trail official in this play from having to look away from the ball to verify who is requesting the team timeout.

Adam

I don't mind that coaches can call a timeout in hs. I just leave it as a secondary concern. If there's any action whatsoever in my primary, coach has to wait. I'm not giving it to him unless I'm sure there is player control at the time I see him request it. If it takes me 10 seconds to notice due to action on the court, he's not getting a TO based on where the ball was 10 seconds prior to me looking at him. Until I see him requesting it, I don't know that it was him, so the request isn't official in my mind.

Adam

10 seconds is admittedly an exaggeration. You're right, it won't take that long for one of us to look at the coach. My point is that if, in the two or three seconds it takes me to look at the coach and verify who the requester is, his player no longer has control, I'm not granting the TO. In most cases, this won't be an issue. I can foresee times, however, when I won't be able to look in time.

BktBallRef

Sorry Snaqwells, went to edit the previous post and deleted it it instead.

Originally posted by Snaqwells
If it takes me 10 seconds to notice due to action on the court, he's not getting a TO based on where the ball was 10 seconds prior to me looking at him. Until I see him requesting it, I don't know that it was him, so the request isn't official in my mind.

That's not going to happen. He's not going to stand there for 10 seconds and not say a word. If he doesn't get the TO, he's going to continute to ask for it until you grant it. If you don't acknowledge him, he's going to get louder and louder. I don't think there's anyone here that's so disciplined that they're not eventually going to glance at him and see the request.

When you see the request and you know that he asked and his player had the ball when he asked, you grant the TO.

Adam

I wondered what happened. 🙂

Okay, here's the critical question that relates back to a freshman boys game I did a few weeks ago. A is down by 1 with less than 10 seconds left. A1 is driving the court, while A coach requests a timeout. Partner (trail) looks at coach to verify as A1 shoots and misses, B1 grabs rebound as partner's whistle sounds for TO for A. Is the TO correct? Coach called for TO while A1 was driving. Partner verified as A1 was shooting.

Adam

MN BB Ref

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I know that there are H.S. officials who do not like having head coaches request team timeouts, but a good pre-game and proper mechanics can reduce the problem that happened in the posted play.

In this case my partner and I did not have any pregame as he did not show up until minutes before tipoff. Unfortunately this seems to be the way things happen in many of these tournaments.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
From the description of the play I am going to make an educated assumption that the officiating crew was a two-man crew and that the Trail official was Table-side. In situations like the posted play, the official who is Opposite-the-Table needs to be aware of possible timeout situations and should be the official who grants the head coach's request for a team timeout. This eliminates the need for the Trail official in this play from having to look away from the ball to verify who is requesting the team timeout.

Mark is correct in assuming this was how the play transpired. I was indeed table-side as the trail official. This required me to actually turn my head to verify the request for the TO. When I turned my head player A1 had not been trapped yet, but upon locating the coach and verifying the request the player was trapped, stripped of the ball, and B1 was in the process of scoring the basket. I do agree that the player had possession when the coach requested the TO, but I can see merits to handling it both ways as it also true that a TO is not a TO until the official grants it. This isn't to say that we should be tardy in granting them though. I guess the saving grace of it all was that the coach of Team A never complained about the way the play transpired.

gazou

This situation could not happen under FIBA rules since time out is allowed when the ball is dead or when a team has been scored on.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Originally posted by MN BB Ref

I do agree that the player had possession when the coach requested the TO, but I can see merits to handling it both ways as it also true that a TO is not a TO until the official grants it. This isn't to say that we should be tardy in granting them though. I guess the saving grace of it all was that the coach of Team A never complained about the way the play transpired.

I really do not see any merits for handling both ways. Team A's Head Coach requested a team timeout while A1 had player control of the ball. The request has to be granted. It is not a matter of being tardy in granting the timeout request. An official always sounds his/her whistle in reaction to something that happened on the court. It is better too be late with the whistle and get the play correct instead of being early with the whistle and getting the play wrong.

Keeping these principals in mind, you and your partner were incorrect in allowing B2's layup to count. Once you were sure that Head Coach "A" was making the request, stop play and grant the request.

Bart Tyson

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bart and BktBallRef are correct. If there is player control when the request for a team timeout is made, then the timeout request must be I am not sure how long Bart has been officiating women's college, but the head coach has been allowed to request a granted.

team timeout in women's college for over 30's years.

Well Mark, then you should also know the Women's side just switched back to NOT allow the Asst. Coach to call the TO. I'm not sure the number of years, but I will guess its about 3 or 4 yrs ago they allowed the asst. coach to call the TO. I'm not sure what all this has to do with how many years I have been doing Women's, but maybe you can explain it to me.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bart and BktBallRef are correct. If there is player control when the request for a team timeout is made, then the timeout request must be I am not sure how long Bart has been officiating women's college, but the head coach has been allowed to request a granted.

team timeout in women's college for over 30's years.

Well Mark, then you should also know the Women's side just switched back to NOT allow the Asst. Coach to call the TO. I'm not sure the number of years, but I will guess its about 3 or 4 yrs ago they allowed the asst. coach to call the TO. I'm not sure what all this has to do with how many years I have been doing Women's, but maybe you can explain it to me.

Bart:

When I started officiating women's college the officials wore blue and white stripped shirts, white shoes (with white socks), and had the choice of wearing blue shorts, culottes, or slacks (and if a belt was worn it had to be blue; try finding a blue belt with a silver belt buckle now less). And one of the wonderfull rules I loved was if A1 throw the ball agains B1 leg and the ball went directly out-of-bounds, Team B received the ball for a throw-in because A1 caused the ball to go out-of-bounds. Have a good season.

MTD, Sr.

Bart Tyson

Bart:

When I started officiating women's college the officials wore blue and white stripped shirts, white shoes (with white socks), and had the choice of wearing blue shorts, culottes, or slacks (and if a belt was worn it had to be blue; try finding a blue belt with a silver belt buckle now less). And one of the wonderfull rules I loved was if A1 throw the ball agains B1 leg and the ball went directly out-of-bounds, Team B received the ball for a throw-in because A1 caused the ball to go out-of-bounds. Have a good season.

MTD, Sr. [/B]

Mark, you have me beat by a long shot. Thats funny. As far as who cause the ball to go oob. If A1 has a throwin and releases the ball and B1 bats the ball back to A1 who is still oob, how did they rule this play.

Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

MTD Sr. in culottes!

Got any pictures of yourself in uniform that you'd like to share with us, Mark? 😀

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

When I started officiating women's college the officials wore blue and white stripped shirts, white shoes (with white socks), and had the choice of wearing blue shorts, culottes, or slacks (and if a belt was worn it had to be blue; try finding a blue belt with a silver belt buckle now less). [/B]

Eeeeeeeeew!

MTD Sr. in culottes!

Got any pictures of yourself in uniform that you'd like to share with us, Mark? 😀 [/B][/QUOTE]

All of the "old" female officials would wear culottes. I always wore slacks when I officiated with them but there was one good looking grad student who was my age, and when she wore shorts, I would wear shorts. I never had the intestinal fortitude to wear culotttes. LOL

MTD, Sr.

Bart Tyson

All of the "old" female officials would wear culottes. I always wore slacks when I officiated with them but there was one good looking grad student who was my age, and when she wore shorts, I would wear shorts. I never had the intestinal fortitude to wear culotttes. LOL

MTD, Sr. [/B]

What are culottes?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

All of the "old" female officials would wear culottes. I always wore slacks when I officiated with them but there was one good looking grad student who was my age, and when she wore shorts, I would wear shorts. I never had the intestinal fortitude to wear culotttes. LOL

MTD, Sr.

What are culottes? [/B]

They are shorts that look like a skirt.