Held Ball Player Control

BillyMac

During a “junior varsity” middle school (yes, we have them) girls game yesterday, I asked the site director (in this case the home team head coach) to have a fan removed. The fan was extremely loud (could not be ignored) and obnoxious while complaining about “rough play” and “someone‘s going to get hurt” (no profanity) while I was calling a held ball with severe but legal “action” (with both, one much stronger, “wrestling” for the ball).

The head coach cooperated and ejected the fan. By coincidence, the girls high school head coach happened to be at the site and escorted the fan out of the gymnasium.

I’ve got pretty thick skin; it was only the second time in forty-five years that I had asked a site director to have a fan removed.

On the ride home I was reflected on this play and came up with some questions not directly about this play.

These are questions about “player control”, specifically “holding the ball”, immediately prior to, or during, held ball situations.

1) A1 is dribbling in his frontcourt and loses the” handle” on the ball and it bounces away for him on the floor. A2 and B2 simultaneously pick the ball off the floor, both having two (yeah, I know the new rule) hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Neither player moves a pivot foot. Before a whistle for a held ball, do either, or both, A2 and/or B2 have player control? Did Team A ever actually lose team control? Did Team B ever gain team control?

2) A1 shoots a try for goal that misses and rebounds. A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the rebounded ball, both having two (yeah, I know the new rule) hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Neither player illegally moves a pivot foot. Before a whistle for a held ball, do either, or both, A2 and/or B2 have player control? Does either, or both, Team A and/or Team B have team control?

Can two opposing players both have player control (holding the ball) at the same time? Can two teams both have team control at the same time?

Add to these questions the complication of a timeout being requested, a request only granted to the team with player control (holding the ball).

3) A1 shoots a try for goal that misses and rebounds. A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the rebounded ball both having two hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Before a held ball is whistled, A2 illegally moves his pivot foot while B2 does not illegally move his pivot foot. Did A2 travel?

Raymond

After 45 years I don't see a reason to change or worry about it.

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
After 45 years I don't see a reason to change or worry about it.

BillyMac wrote
On the ride home I was reflected on this play and came up with some questions not directly about this play. These are questions about “player control”, specifically “holding the ball”, immediately prior to, or during, held ball situations.

My questions probably didn't require an introduction.

Sorry if I distracted from my held ball player control questions.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
3) A1 shoots a try for goal that misses and rebounds. A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the rebounded ball both having two hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Before a held ball is whistled, A2 illegally moves his pivot foot while B2 does not illegally move his pivot foot. Did A2 travel?

A2 illegaly moved his pivot foot immediatey prior to a possible whistle for a held ball due to B2's attempt to aggressively pull the ball away from A2.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

But what if I was still waiting to see if I could avoid calling a held ball?

4-25-1Held Ball: A held ball occurs when: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Control was "obtained" the instant that both players put four hands on the ball.

Why do many of us wait split seconds to see if one can "wrestle" control from the other?

Raymond

The most prudent thing to do is call a held ball.

I don't know why anybody would want to call a travel and then have to explain to the coach. Everybody in the gym would expect a held ball to be called

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
The most prudent thing to do is call a held ball.
I don't know why anybody would want to call a travel and then have to explain to the coach. Everybody in the gym would expect a held ball to be called.

So, when two opponents get four (for ease of explanation) hands on the ball and only one travels, this should always be called a held ball.

I fully agree in real game situations, and always do such in my games, but I'm not sure that the rule language supports this.

Now, how about my timeout / held ball questions?

BillyMac wrote
1) A1 is dribbling in his frontcourt and loses the” handle” on the ball and it bounces away for him on the floor. A2 and B2 simultaneously pick the ball off the floor, both having two (yeah, I know the new rule) hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Neither player moves a pivot foot. Before a whistle for a held ball, do either, or both, A2 and/or B2 have player control? Did Team A ever actually lose team control? Did Team B ever gain team control?

2) A1 shoots a try for goal that misses and rebounds. A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the rebounded ball, both having two (yeah, I know the new rule) hands solidly on the ball. They “wrestle” for possession. Neither player illegally moves a pivot foot. Before a whistle for a held ball, do either, or both, A2 and/or B2 have player control? Does either, or both, Team A and/or Team B have team control?

Can two opposing players both have player control (holding the ball) at the same time? Can two teams both have team control at the same time?

Add to these questions the complication of a timeout being requested, a request only granted to the team with player control (player holding the ball).

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
So, when two opponents get four (for ease of explanation) hands on the ball and only one travels, this should always be called a held ball.

...i.e., the held ball caused the travel.

Raymond

So whoever yells "time out" first while two players have the ball, that determines who's possession it was?

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
So whoever yells "time out" first while two players have the ball, that determines who's possession it was?

That's what I'm asking.

In situations such as this, can two opposing players both have player control (holding the ball) at the same time, and if such players actually do have player control, what's to prevent a timeout request from one player (or, yikes, both players) being granted?

BillyMac

Back in ancient times we had something called “Change of Status”.

The "Change of Status" rule primarily dealt with the transition of the ball from live to dead (or vice versa).

When it came to a held ball (two players wrestling for control), the rule was used to determine if a team could save the possession with a timeout.

As soon as two opponents both have firm hands on the ball, a held ball occurs. This is a "Change of Status" where player control is lost. Under the old status rules, if the official judged that the status had changed due to a held ball (even if the whistle hadn't blown yet), the timeout request was denied because player control no longer existed.

“Change of Status” also denied requests for timeouts when 80% of a count had been reached; four seconds of a five second count (inbounding, closely guarded), and eight seconds of a ten second count.

Am I correct in my explanation Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
In situations such as this, can two opposing players both have player control (holding the ball) at the same time, and if such players actually do have player control, what's to prevent a timeout request from one player (or, yikes, both players) being granted?

Could it be that in situations such as this that when two opponents have four (yeah I know the new rule) hands "holding" (definition of player control) on to the ball, that neither player is considered to have player control (for timeout request purposes)?

bob jenkins

I think it's more like the ruling when a violation and a foul happen at "the same time" -- officials must determine which happened first.

And, as Raymond said, the held ball happened first. 😉

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
That's what I'm asking.

In situations such as this, can two opposing players both have player control (holding the ball) at the same time, and if such players actually do have player control, what's to prevent a timeout request from one player (or, yikes, both players) being granted?

So just to be clear. If two opponents are holding the ball simultaneously, whichever team requests a timeout Is awarded possession of the ball?

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
So just to be clear. If two opponents are holding the ball simultaneously, whichever team requests a timeout Is awarded possession of the ball?

That's what I'm asking, not in a real game, but in the rule language.

Up until 2003-04 (I thought it was way before that) the requesting and granting of timeouts was somewhat clear.

Rule 5, Section 8, Article 3: A timeout shall not be granted if it would involve a change of status of the ball (paraphrased).

After the NFHS removed change of status (live to dead or vice versa) from the rulebook, I don't believe that the replacement rule language ever quite "caught up" to such held ball timeout request situations.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Rule 5, Section 8, Article 3: A timeout shall not be granted if it would involve a change of status of the ball.

I actually remember ancient coaches trying to avoid violations (five seconds, ten seconds) and/or to maintain possession in an imminent held ball situation by requesting a timeout and ancient me telling them, "No, too late, change of status".

BillyMac

Exclusive player control.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Exclusive player control.

Current rule language: Player control exists when a player is dribbling or holding a live ball.

Improved rule language: Player control exists when a player is dribbling or exclusively holding a live ball.

Robert Goodman

BillyMac wrote
Back in ancient times we had something called “Change of Status”.

The "Change of Status" rule primarily dealt with the transition of the ball from live to dead (or vice versa).

When it came to a held ball (two players wrestling for control), the rule was used to determine if a team could save the possession with a timeout.

As soon as two opponents both have firm hands on the ball, a held ball occurs. This is a "Change of Status" where player control is lost. Under the old status rules, if the official judged that the status had changed due to a held ball (even if the whistle hadn't blown yet), the timeout request was denied because player control no longer existed.

“Change of Status” also denied requests for timeouts when 80% of a count had been reached; four seconds of a five second count (inbounding, closely guarded), and eight seconds of a ten second count.

Am I correct in my explanation Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

In ancient times, wasn't the term "tie ball"? "Held ball" referred to a 5 second count while closely guarded.

BillyMac

Robert Goodman wrote
In ancient times, wasn't the term "tie ball"?.

All situations that are now held balls (and others) were actual jump balls, at one of the three jump ball circles on the court.

Robert Goodman wrote
"Held ball" referred to a 5 second count while closely guarded.

You've got my antennae up.

Did a five second closely guarded "violation" lead to a violation or to a "jump ball"?

Am I supposed to remember that?

It was the eighties man, lots of cocaine.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
You've got my antennae up. Did a five second closely guarded "violation" lead to a violation or to a "jump ball"?

Robert Goodman piqued my curiosity, and not wanting to wait for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to climb up into his cold attic, I did some research myself.

For decades, beginning in the 1930s, if a player was closely guarded for five seconds, the official blew the whistle and called for an actual jump ball.

During the 1982-1983 season (my third season officiating), the NFHS decided to make the five-second violation a straight turnover.

The goal was to reward aggressive defense more directly and simplify the game.